1 Wife...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:57:19 GMT

From the way you lay out the question, it appears such a person has the right to ask for a divorce.

Would he be responsible to do so?
I feel that depends on other variables even with the obvious bias of the question.

If things are that bad they definitely need professional help.

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (pninah1) — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:58:17 GMT

Rabbi Daniel wrote:
Sorry I missed that.

I tried to do a little research. I could not find anyone saying anything obvious.
There is a verse in I Chron. [14:3] that says he took wives and begot many children "in Jerusalem."
Marrying Bat Sheva and bearing Solomon was prior to this, when he reigned from Hebron.

While he would take concubines for the sake of begetting children,...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:43:28 GMT

Sorry I missed that.

I tried to do a little research. I could not find anyone saying anything obvious.
There is a verse in I Chron. [14:3] that says he took wives and begot many children "in Jerusalem."
Marrying Bat Sheva and bearing Solomon was prior to this, when he reigned from Hebron.

While he would take concubines for the sake of begetting children, the verse in Chronicles uses "nashim," which typically means women, i.e., wives.
To...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (pninah1) — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:33:14 GMT

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

Rabbi Daniel wrote:
King David was faithful to every wife....

But in any case, pnina1, your modern (western) concept of "marital faithfulness" is meaningless in the context of Torah-law, which permits...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:25:39 GMT

I don't think anyone's concepts are more modern than yours, professor, and the concept of marital unfaithfulness is full of meaning in this context. Which is why I said what I said.

Marital unfaithfulness means insensitivity.
Marital unfaithfulness means betrayal.
Marital unfaithfulness means haplessness.
Marital unfaithfulness means wantonness.
Marital unfaithfulness means abandonment.
Marital unfaithfulness means unrestraint.
ETC!

...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:41:23 GMT

Rabbi Daniel wrote:
King David was faithful to every wife....

But in any case, pnina1, your modern (western) concept of "marital faithfulness" is meaningless in the context of Torah-law, which permits polygyny.

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:35:43 GMT

King David was faithful to every wife.

Someone who's head is full of soap operas- or their own personal problems, r'l- is not capable of discussing, let alone understanding a person as great, holy and righteous and King David.
King David was "hand picked" by G-d to be King over Israel.
King David was G-d promised tat the monarchy would never leave his line.
King David was told by G-d one psalm of his was worth more than 1000 sacrifices of his son...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (pninah1) — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:11:05 GMT

This seems like a good place to ask this question. Regarding King David, who had I believe 8 wives and many concubines. In Tanakh, you can see concubines spoken of in his life before Bathsheba, but unless I am missing it, I do not see in Samuel or Chronicles where any are spoke of after her? 1 Kings speaks of David's last days and Abishag. But it is clear that David was not intimate with Abishag. The reason I ask, is that in a discussion with a friend, this friend has presented the...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:44:40 GMT

Remembering your original question, "However I'm still not sure what aspect of Torah this atrophy "argument" is based on?" I said back, "Atrophy... is not an aspect of Torah but a reality of life which affected the relationships..."

You now ask, "Hm-mm, would you say it (atrophy) is an aspect (or reality) of life not covered by Torah? If so... are there many aspects or realities of life not covered by Torah or...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Simon the Arborist) — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 04:50:43 GMT
Rabbi Daniel,

"Atrophy, as you're calling it, is not an aspect of Torah but a reality of life..."

Hm-mm, would you say it (atrophy) is an aspect (or reality) of life not covered by Torah? If so... are there many aspects or realities of life not covered by Torah or is this a one-off?

Also the point that drashi made about it being permitted with "restrictions" is quite relevant for my understanding....

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:09:57 GMT
Welcome back!

Yes, nothing attracts more posts then when I specifically comment on how cloudy threads can get. I didn't release them for a while but when you seemed to be gone, then why not?

My last point and post to you wasn't the quality of the question but whether you were understanding and following what we have been saying.

Very briefly, based on your most recent post, marrying more than one wife was not a Torah command or a good deed. It was...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Simon the Arborist) — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:28:29 GMT
Back again...

Sorry I've taken so long.

I'm not sure where to start but I guess it has to be with what drashi said... "Here in Israel, one is permitted to be polygamous although there are restrictions. " Thanks for that drashi, it's shed a whole new light on the question.

"Rabbis are not priests. Their primary role is to study the Torah and act as judges based on it."

As I...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (drashi) — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:48:09 GMT
Here in Israel, one is permitted to be polygamous, although there are restrictions. There is a form that the man has to fill out, geting dozens (someone said 100, which may be true) of authorized Rabbis to sign off on. I know of one person (I went to his second wedding in Chevorn) who was permitted after 2 years of getting all of the right signatures because his fisrt wife refused to be made available for being given a get (sever psychological problems), and so it was permitted.

But...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:59:48 GMT

Simon the Arborist wrote:
Sophiee, you made some points about it being about quality of life, financial hardship and that two (or more) wives would argue. Also... "Nowhere in the Torah does it say to have MORE than one wife". The point is that nowhere in Torah does it say you cannot have more than one wife, in fact as I understand it there is even...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:01:37 GMT
It's not a matter of going over old ground again.
It's more like not understanding the argument or losing track of our position in our arguments.

Here's what I mean by not understanding the argument:

In your 12/10 post you argued/posited, "The reason I wondered about the xian link is because in Arab lands it appears that it was still Ok to have more than 1 wife or in other words, in lands that permit having more than 1 wife it was Ok and in...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Simon the Arborist) — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:25:03 GMT
Dear Rabbi Daniel and Sophiee,

As always, I am grateful for your comments and hope you both had a good Shabbos.

"If Jews in those 'poly' lands had contact with the 'mono' lands and heard about Rabbi Gershom and said, "We're not following it because it's OK here," then you would have a point."

Perhaps they did not see the need to follow anything else except Torah, they had Torah...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:54:33 GMT
A reason had to do with the financial hardships of supporting two or more families -- and the arguments that polygamy can cause between the two wives (Be'ur HaGra 34; Noda BiYehuda, Mahadura Tanina, Even HaEzer 66).

Nowhere in the Torah does it say to have MORE than one wife. Nowhere does it say to take X number (from one to infinity) beyond "too many."

Rabbis can and do put fences around the Torah for our own protection -- and in this case that protection...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Rabbi Daniel) — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:22:00 GMT
"Would you say that Jews have never responded to outside influences?"

When we were told to convert, die or leave Spain we left Spain. But I know that's not what you mean.
What you are about to grasp is the difference between a man made religion and one that was designed and presented by G-d.

Man's religion changes. Outside influences, inside influences, no influences, because the "followers" say so....
G-d's religion...

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:09:52 GMT

Simon the Arborist wrote:
Interesting about the 10 or 2800 men. The thing that caught my eye was in fact the number 10... why 10? Hence my question about the so called 10 lost tribes. ProfBenTziyyons comments are also interesting in that he makes it clear that we are talking about languages of the nations, which simply means that these 10 men will speak the languages of (the) other nations....

Re: 1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Simon the Arborist) — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:22:25 GMT
"So, in other words, the whole crux of your question, did Jews respond to exterior influences, you don't know if those influences even existed"

That's true...I don't know for sure that exterior influences existed 1000 years ago, but just to be clear, are you really telling me that they did not?. Would you say that Jews have never responded to outside influences?

"You seem...

1 Wife...

feeds@yuku.com (Simon the Arborist) — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:52:12 GMT
Hi All,

Just wondering if you can help me with this. I was wondering about the origins of having only one wife.

The way I understand it is that some Jews adopted this practice at some time in order to get along better with other cultures (possibly xian ones) whilst others in countries (possibly Arab) where permitted to have more that one wife.

As far as I'm aware Torah does not forbid a man from having more than one wife, is it an xian thing?

Are...