Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:57:23 GMT

Remember how Missionaries love to quote the relevant so-called 'interpolated' passages in Josephus as a support for external evidence. I would like to point out that in the same breath, I'm sure they would like to persuade us all that the Oral Torah is nothing but a set of man-made traditions created after Jesus was dead and buried (sic!).

If we grant them the right to accept Josephus as a legitimate source, we should go at great...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:39:03 GMT

Sophiee1 wrote:

"when she was pregnant she (Miriam) was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera". . .
Origen takes great exception to the idea of Jsus' mother being pregnant by a Roman soldier and not a...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:51:05 GMT

There are those who agree with you -- but the sticking point for me is that Pandira had followers into the 2nd century CE -- it appears to have been a DIFFERENT sect from Chrstianity.

Celsus, the pagan, who Origen wrote against in "Contra Celsus" seemed to think that Pandira was the prototype for the Chrstian Jsus. The early church fathers (like Origen) disagreed with him. We don't have Celsus' work, but we do have Origen's rebuttal to it.

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:05:54 GMT

Sophiee1 wrote:
Yep, and per the GT the "facts" around Yeshu ben Pandira don't "match" Jsus.

If you believe the GT to be historically accurate.....however, if you believe it is a work of mythology (Cf. Their Hollow Inheritance, by Drazin), then the made up stuff is just that - imaginative ramblings....and the facts do fit....because the GT is not...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:18:14 GMT

Yep, and per the GT the "facts" around Yeshu ben Pandira don't "match" Jsus.

1. He was executed after a proper trial;

2. He had the 40 days period for the crier to try and find witnesses on his behalf (not the ridiculous night time farce of a fake trial the GT talks about for Jsus)

3. He was executed by stoning (a Jewish death sentence) and his dead body was (per halacha) hung from a tree to display to others as a warning. No Roman...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:33:20 GMT

Sophiee1 wrote:
On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray...."

This passage (which was censored from all European editions of the Talmud other than that...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:20:53 GMT

Dannyil, I think your dates are a bit "off." Are you thinking of Yeshu ben Pandira who lived about 80 years BCE? He is mentioned in Sanhedrin 43a. Pandira doesn't fit the idea (date wise or anything else) for the Chrstian Jsus. The Talmud has a few Yeshus in it. . . It is a fairly common name after all (Joshua).

Quote:

On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:14:48 GMT

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

Dannyil wrote:
Historicity for a Jew places Jesus around 190 BCE. He didn't walk on water, and he did not do anything the NT portrays him to have done.

Where the dickens do you get a date of 190BCE...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (SearchinMyRoots) — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:33:06 GMT

Bravo for Debby!

I agree with her statement of missionaries dragging us into something that doesn't even matter.

So ODBS, if we agree that there might have been a person named jc who spoke about the Hebrew bible, where does that leave us?

Back to all of the mistranslations, inaccuracies and twisting of the Tanach.

Yes, there might have been a person such as jc.

No, he wasn't a messiah or G-d incarnate.

Next topic please!

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:35:22 GMT

Great post Deby, and I agree with everything except two things.

The first disagreement is that the way people "prove" the Greek Text and Jsus' existence is not the same way we interpret everything else in the world of ancient history. The opposite is true: nothing is accepted by scholars without external proof. Chrstians use a completely different set of "standards" when even looking for the historical...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (deby22) — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:17:43 GMT

Hi,

I haven't posed in some time but this thread has amused me.

1) Sophie to answer your question. No it hasn't changed my mind because I'm reasonably sure that a man with a Hebrew or Aramaic name vaguley similar to what modern English pronounces as Jesus, once lived. I am comfortbale with the idea that he lived somewhere in the early 1st century and that he was probably a fairly knowledgable Pharisee. It would seem that he did a fair amount of preaching and...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:25:30 GMT

There was a time when experts said the world was flat.

There was a time when experts said man would never fly.

There was a time when millions of people believed that Pharaohs and Emperors were gods.

The fact that "experts" who are Chrstians believe something to be true and then claim it IS true with no real evidence behind it falls into the same camp -- I'll side with Thomas Jefferson on this one.

When and IF ODBS or anyone else can...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 06:26:58 GMT

Dannyil wrote:
Historicity for a Jew places Jesus around 190 BCE. He didn't walk on water, and he did not do anything the NT portrays him to have done.

Where the dickens do you get a date of 190BCE from?

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:37:12 GMT

On Dr Browns side wrote:

Sophiee, Dawn and others who have been interested,

There is most definitely proof that Jesus existed,

The reality is that there is no such 'proof'. But before we get into that issue, define your terms. What do you mean by "Jesus"? As the NT describes him? Well you have a walking on...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (JohnySkeptic) — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:56:47 GMT

ODBS

Are they authentic traditions? Skeptical scholars say yes since they fulfill those criteria.

What do you mean by "authentic"? Are these skeptical scholars saying that these oral traditions came from apostles or eyewitnesses?

One thing that should strike you immediately is that these people are not specialists in this field.

Fantastic....now that when I bring up list of scholars who don't agree with your...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:43:59 GMT

Netanel wrote:

Waiting for what, Sophiee? You've demonstrated why this thread is pointless. If you reject the two sources which do mention Jsus as being forged, lying, or unreliable then obviously nobody is going to bring anything to make you think otherwise.

Netanel, I did NOT write that the Josephus quotes are forgeries. This is also NOT what Louis...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (On Dr Browns side) — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:20:27 GMT

Netanel,

I would only suggest that the point be made, and emphasized that what I have given in my last two posts as "proof" for the existence of Jesus, which includes the Josephus references, is accepted as solid proof by the vast majority of the scholarly world for Jesus' existence. So, if one wishes to disregard these proofs, it should be made known that they are on the far fringe of belief exactly because they ignore or reject such clear evidence, evidence that even...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (On Dr Browns side) — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:10:09 GMT

All the scholars in the world don't prove Jsus LIVED.

Still waiting.

And waiting.

Sigh.

I have not simply appealed to scholars so your first statement is irrelevant. Why are you waiting? I've given you the proof in my last post. I've explained the criteria further, why when a tradition fulfills these criteria, it is an...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Netanel) — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:02:29 GMT

Waiting for what, Sophiee? You've demonstrated why this thread is pointless. If you reject the two sources which do mention Yeshu as being forged, lying, or unreliable then obviously nobody is going to bring anything to make you think otherwise. This thread illustrates why I think there is no good reason to argue - regardless of what "side" one is on - whether Yeshu existed or not in a counter-missionary argument. First, it is ultimately irrelevent to whether the...

Re: Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:51:20 GMT

All the scholars in the world don't prove Jsus LIVED.

Still waiting.

And waiting.

Sigh.

Proof of Jesus Existence. Sophiee, Dawn, and Alesiah

feeds@yuku.com (On Dr Browns side) — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:19:41 GMT

Sophiee, Dawn and others who have been interested,

There is most definitely proof that Jesus existed, proof contained within and outside the Gospels. Based on the following, the overwhelming majority of scholars, historians included, conclude that there is no doubt Jesus existed, even Jews, and extreme skeptics like the Jesus Seminar.

Firstly, the New Testament itself provides evidence. This is not a claim that the New Testament is accurate,...