Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:14:50 GMT

Yes facts are quite "funny" , I agree . The Greek LXX , has proven to be more reliable and consistent with the most ancient manuscripts of the Tenach , than the later Masoretic Hebrew text , from which rabbnical Jewish people like yourself , base their scriptures . As I mentioned earlier , if we were to apply the same reasoning and methods that you are applying to critique , our so called " Greek Text " , your text would prove to be just as...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Dannyil) — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:58:13 GMT

The Rambam has been cited, and the Rambam knew more than you or I will ever know....
nonetheless, I prefer to cite Devarim 13:1-7 as applying to Yoshke.....

-D

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:45:33 GMT

The quote by FF Bruce (now deceased), does NOT support the truth. Per you he wrote:

"The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . .

Jews were FORCED into translating the Torah and would not have had an "authorized" Greek translation at some later time per FF Bruce. Read the Talmud quote.

He does state that what is today...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (searchingjew) — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:00:41 GMT

Sophiee, the FF Bruce quote totally supports your contention- that's why I included it.

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:40:04 GMT

Searchingjew, as the REAL Emmanuel Tov pointed out, Jews stopped using the Septuagint LONG before Chrstianity. Not only that but as Netanel and I have pointed out -- the "original" was only of the Torah (Five Books of Moses) and even that was not maintained by the Jews or ever used in Synagogues.

Observant Jews then, as Jews now, read and study in Hebrew.

This FF Bruce Evangelical may think whatever he may like but the Jews were FORCED into translating the...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (UriYosef) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:29:00 GMT

Sophiee1 wrote:

Stinktank appears here to be fraudulently referencing Tov rather than Mulder and Sysling (two Chrstians).

Miller's work on that website is well-known for its distortions, misrepresentations, and actual falsifications of the true facts, and Miller doesn't know the Hebrew language nor does he know much about Judaism. The sad thing is that a lot of people...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (searchingjew) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:44:07 GMT

You're right, Sophiee. I did read that on Miller's website. I wasn't trying to mislead- I just assumed his citation was correct (and who knows, maybe he's NOT being dishonest and I just misread it).

As a sidenote, I did come across a quote by the evangelical scholar FF Bruce (now deceased), where he writes:

"The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . . lost interest in the Septuagint...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:47:44 GMT

You are very welcome, Netanel -- and again Emmanuel Tov agrees with your assessment of Aquila.

From Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, by Tov (page 146):

"Aquila prepared his revision in approximately 125 CE. . . the translation system of Aquila is the most literal of the biblical translators. His approach to Scripture, acquired from his teacher R' Akiba,...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Netanel) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:32:13 GMT

Thank you, Sophiee. I have edited my post to change "Tov" to "attributed to Tov." It is a shame that his name is being attached to those quotes, as it gives people mistaken impressions of Tov.

This should tell people curious about Jews and Greek translations - and how necessary they were - something:

The translation of the Tanach into Greek by Aqilas in the 2nd Century CE is held to have been very faithful and reliable to the original Hebrew. Aqilas...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:01:30 GMT

Searchingjew, let's be honest. You didn't read that from Emmanuel Tov:

"Originally the LXX was a Jewish translation, and hence was quoted by Jewish historians (Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artapanus, Josephus), poets (Ezekiel) and philosophers (Philo). Especially the Pentateuch was also used in the synagogue service. However, at the end of the first century C.E. many Jews ceased to use the LXX because the early Christians...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (UriYosef) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:52:40 GMT

searchingjew,

Prof. Emanuel Tov's opinion isn't the only one out there. If you can get your hands on the Jewish Encyclopedia, there is an article by Prof. Suzanne Daniel (Hebrew University, Jerusalem) titled "The Septuagint". In the 1971 edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia it is in Volume 4B, pp. 851-856. This article is thorough, and it doesn't support Prof. Tov's opinion.

Here is one relevant section (which I happen to have transcribed for...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Netanel) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:33:07 GMT

The quote attributed to Tov is generalizing all translations of books of the Tanach into Greek as being "Septuagint."

This is historically false.

Septuagint is literally the translation of the Torah made by seventy-two Jewish elders into Greek in the 3rd Century BCE.

Everything after/outside of that is not from the seventy-two scholars, which is what the name Septuagint specifically references.

All of the books of the Tanach likely...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (searchingjew) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:56:53 GMT

I read by Prof. Emanuel Tov the following: "Originally the LXX was a Jewish translation, and hence was quoted by Jewish historians (Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artapanus, Josephus), poets (Ezekiel) and philosophers (Philo). Especially the Pentateuch was also used in the synagogue service. However, at the end of the first century C.E. many Jews ceased to use the LXX because the early Christians had adopted it as their own translation, and by then it was considered a Christian translation. This...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Netanel) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:28:48 GMT

Shalom searchingjew,

Hi Netanel, it's my understanding the entire Septuagint was translated between 3rd and 1st centuries BCE. Is that correct?

No.

Septuagint referred to a very specific and particular work, despite Christianity's attempts to obscure that fact.

It referred only to the Greek translation of the Torah which was translated into Greek in the 3rd Century...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (searchingjew) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:56:10 GMT

Hi Netanel, it's my understanding the entire Septuagint was translated between 3rd and 1st centuries BCE. Is that correct?

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Netanel) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:39:02 GMT

We know (based on the Talmud, Josephus, and other sources) who translated the Torah into the original Septuagint. We have no such knowledge of who was responsible for translating the N'viyim and K'tuvim into Greek. Obviously the translations were made at some point, but who made them, who knows? The bottom line is that the Septuagint that exists today is of Christian, not Jewish, origin. In the second century CE a proselyte and student of...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (searchingjew) — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:51:38 GMT

Just a quick point: I've seen it argued here that the Septuagint was only the 5 books of Moses. It's true that the original Septuagint was, but my understanding is that by the time of Jesus, the entire Tanach had been translated into Greek by Jews in Alexandria.

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:03:10 GMT

You will get no argument on that point from me, Uri, but nothing you or I can tell such fools will deter them from continuing to make the claim − and, sadly, they do manange to convince and deceive many of the gullible οί πολλοί.

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (UriYosef) — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:34:58 GMT

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

I thought of that one too, Uri, but I decided not to post it because the standard response to it from christians is to claim that the "apostles" (aliter: "apostates") were God's "prophets" to whom He revealed what He was "doing".

Mordochai,
...

Re: Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (ProfBenTziyyon) — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:20:52 GMT

I thought of that one too, Uri, but I decided not to post it because the standard response to it from christians is to claim that the "apostles" (aliter: "apostates") were God's "prophets" to whom He revealed what He was "doing".

Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

feeds@yuku.com (Sophiee1) — Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:18:54 GMT

CT has dredged up the old chestnut that the Jews have corrupted the Torah. UriYosef did an excellent rebuttal of this rabbit trail. Since I don't desire to take that thread even further from its topic (did the Rabbis change Isaiah 53) I'm starting a new thread on the topic.

As UriYosef pointed out that Chrstians accept the Jewish Bible (T'nach) as true and as the basis for their own claims. He went on to show:

Let