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Besamim

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amichayil	Besamim	Lead	[-]
Posts: 14 (03/31/08 18:05:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Shalom, I'm embarrassed showing my ignorance by asking this question but here goes.... In the Havdalah Blessing in the siddur, 'besamim' is always written with a 'bet' sans dagash and transliterated as, 'vesamim', like it is spelled. I've always only heard it pronounced, 'besamim'. What is the Hebrew grammatical rule for the siddur spelling, and why do people say, 'besamim' and not, 'vesamim'? Toda for your help! amichayil
UriYosef		#1	[-]
Posts: 1237 (03/31/08 19:28:32) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	amichayil - What is the Hebrew grammatical rule for the siddur spelling, and why do people say, 'besamim' and not, 'vesamim'? Let me make this as simple as possible, without getting into the intricacies. The reason is that the word בְּשָׂמִים, b'samim, immediately follows the word מִינֵי, minei, which ends with the letter י, yod, that is part of the tseire male vowel of the letter נ, nun, and which makes the ending syllable an "open syllable". The letter ב, vet, gets the dagesh qal, which changes its sound from a "v" to a "b", only when it is at the beginning of a sentence or when it follows a "closed syllable" that is either part of the word itself or one that ends the previous word. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
ProfBenTziyyon		#2	[-]
Posts: 216 (03/31/08 21:24:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Uri, בּוֹרֵא מִינֵי בְשָׂמִים and בּוֹרֵא עֲצֵי בְשָׂמִים both have beit r'fuyyah (i.e. without daggesh); but בּוֹרֵא עִשְׂבוֹת בְּשָׂמִים has beit d'gushah (i.e. with daggesh). As to why many people say בְּשָׂמִים instead of בְשָׂמִים, your correspondent may as well ask why so many people say יִרְאוּ (they will see) or even יִֽרְאוּ (they will be afraid) instead of יְראוּ (the imperative "fear!") in the verse יְראוּ אֶת יְיָ קְדֹשָׁיו כִּי אֵין מַחְסוֹר לִירֵאָיו (T'hillim 34:10) which is recited at the end of בִּרְכַּת הַמָּזוֹן - it's just ignorance! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
amichayil		#3	[-]
Posts: 15 (04/02/08 17:46:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef- Toda for your reply, but I'm still confused. The first paragraph of ProfBenTziyyon's post above is one example of my confusion regarding this gramatical rule. Also, I have several Beginner Hebrew books for secondary/college students and only one even mentions this rule. All the others simply state that 'bet' with a dagesh is 'b' and without is 'v'. No info there! The only book I have which mentions any rule at all is, 'Modern Hebrew For Begginners', by Esther Raizen. She writes that "bet, kaf and pe" have two variants each, referred to as the "stop" and "fricative". On page 3 she states, "The stop variant occurs at the beginning of a word or at the beginning of a syllable should it follow a vowelless consonant (like 'pil-pel' below). The fricative variant occurs in the middle of the word, and is always preceded by a vowel." (She also notes the "chaf sofit and fe sofit", but that's it for the 'rule'.) Hence, my confusion. Another problem with these books is that they all have many student exercises-----but NO answers. NO way to know if/when one's work is correct or not. ProfBenTziyyon- My Hebrew school experience was way (way!) back in the old days when we were simply taught the alef-bet in order to read the prayers. No one had a clue what they were actually 'reading', so kids competed to be the fastest 'reader'. We all came from homes with no Jewish education---that 2 hrs/week was it. Easy to see why the level of assimilation/ignorance is high in the U.S., but it's sad. -amichayil
UriYosef		#4	[-]
Posts: 1250 (04/02/08 20:44:14) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	amichayil wrote: Toda for your reply, but I'm still confused. The first paragraph of ProfBenTziyyon's post above is one example of my confusion regarding this gramatical rule. I am not sure where your confusion is. Professor Raizen's statement of the rule is quite clear, and ProfBenTziyyon's first paragraph shows you three examples - the first two where the letter "bet" without the "dagesh qal" appears following a non-consonantal ending syllable of the previous word, hence the "vet", and the third one showing you where the "bet" with the dagesh qal" appears following a consonantal ending syllable of the previous word. This same rule applies also in the middle of a word. Perhaps you can explain exactly what your confusion is. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
amichayil		#5	[-]
Posts: 16 (04/03/08 23:16:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef, I'm sorry---I mis-read ProfBenTziyyon's first paragraph. My mistake. My 'confusion' regarding when the dagesh qal is to be used is if it's, "...at the beginning of a word..." (Professor Raizen) or, "...beginning of a sentence..." (Professor UriYosef). I just wanted clarification because I'm making so many mistakes trying to read Hebrew without nikkud. Toda for your help. I greatly appreciate all that you do in sharing your knowledge. -amichayil
UriYosef		#6	[-]
Posts: 1256 (04/03/08 23:34:21) Director of Education Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	amichayil - My 'confusion' regarding when the dagesh qal is to be used is if it's, "...at the beginning of a word..." (Professor Raizen) or, "...beginning of a sentence..." (Professor UriYosef). I just wanted clarification because I'm making so many mistakes trying to read Hebrew without nikkud. Professor Raizen's answer is better (more complete) than mine since every sentence begins with a word, and you have words also inside a sentence. The only exceptions when a dagesh qal is not applied are those described above. UriYosef Our raison d'être: WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
amichayil		#7	[-]
Posts: 18 (04/04/08 00:23:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	UriYosef, Toda raba for clearing that up. Your original answer to my question was excellent too(!). I just needed clarification. Thank you so much. -amichayil

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