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adambela wrote:

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There is no proof that Jsus ever lived, let alone died -- let alone was resurrected.

There are many extra-biblical sources testifying to the historicity of Chrst. The Babylonian Talmud testifies to (h)is existence, the Jewish historian Josephus ben Mattathias mocks the beliefs of the Chrstians, but doesn't deny the existence of Jsus. . .

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On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."

Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.

The following chart shows which details refer to each person.

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There is no proof that Jsus ever lived, let alone died -- let alone was resurrected.

There are many extra-biblical sources testifying to the historicity of Chrst. . . There are references to Jsus in roman documents as early as 52 (CE), when the church was already growing and prospering. . .

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"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jsus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mith-ras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."

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There is no proof that Jsus ever lived, let alone died -- let alone was resurrected.

If the apostles had made this all up, why take this lie to their grizzly horrible deaths? How many people do you see dying for voldemort?

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There is no definitive proof that any biblical patriarch existed.

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"Avraham Biran and his team of archaeologists found a remarkable in*****ion from the 9th century (B.C.E.) that refers both to the 'House of David' and to the 'King of Israel.' This is the first time that the name David has been found in any ancient in*****ion outside the Bible. That the inscription refers not simply to a 'David' but to the House of David, the dynasty of the great Israelite king, is even more remarkable" (March-April, 1994, p. 26).

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1. Herod was king of Judea (Luke 1:5);
2. Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2); and
3. Caesar Augustus ruled Rome (Luke 2:1).

It must come as quite a shock that the man-god you worship likely never existed. I can understand your frustration, but kindly review the rules of the forum which prohibit both proselytizing and also require that one show respect to others. While proselytizing is not allowed, questions are welcomed.

If you have questions about anything about Judaism or our bible - from Josephus to Psalm 16 to Psalm 22 to Isaiah 53 to Daniel 9 feel free to ask them, but try not to do so all in one post. When you throw out so many topics in one post it is difficult to have an intelligent conversation - there are just too many things that need to be addressed.

Therefore you'd be better served starting one thread about Psalm 22, another about Psalm 116, etc. Still, I will take each one of your points in turn as a separate post, starting with your points about Josephus.

Concerning Josephus

Please go back and re-read my post to you (#6) where I said:

There is NO proof that Jsus ever lived. None. Nada. Zip.

This isn't to say that someone with the very common name of "Yeshu" existed. It is possible that someone was a prototype that then was spun into myth -- but there isn't any proof of that either.

Possibly someone existed who was the kernel for the Chrstian Jsus, possibly not. There is certainly no proof that the Jsus as presented in the Greek text ever lived. Now move on to post #7 where I discussed Josephus at quite some length.

You ignored a very major point I made in that post. Josephus born in 37 CE --- which post dates Jsus supposed death. Ergo never saw Jsus and wasn't even alive when the Xians say Jsus was alive. Josephus wrote many years after Jsus supposed death starting after 67 CE. Antiquities was first published after his death (around 93 CE).

There was no standard for maintaining its accuracy and no early manuscripts remain - ergo we don't know what has been changed, when it was changed or by whom. There is no way of knowing if this is a forgery or not - and expert opinions vary.

ALL of the copies we have of Josephus (including the Arabic one) come to us from Chrstian sources. Every Single One.

Again you make a big assumption that the statements about Jsus in Josephus' writings weren't added later by scribes. Jews refer to one another as Name, son (or daughter) of father. In this case it would be Jsus son of Joseph. Yet the text doesn't have that - odd.

Then compare how Josephus writes of Ananus in the Jewish Wars with the description in Antiquities 20.9.1. They are almost opposite. Odd, don't you think?

These oddities, and others, have many experts convinced that this is a forgery. Granted there is disagreement among the experts -- but definitely there are parts that don't ring true, especially Josephus referring to Jsus as "the chrst." Josephus was a Jew -- he never became a Chrstian so he certainly wouldn't have called Jsus a messiah. He didn't believe he was one!

For the sake of argument let's just agree that they were written by Josephus (although most are forgeries) - the fact that Josephus knew about a religion based around a god named Jsus doesn't mean a person named Jsus ever lived. Josephus, having been born after Jsus supposedly died, has no direct knowledge of Jsus existence.

You seem to put a great deal in Josephus mentioning James. Please give reference points when possible. This claim is found in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, 20.9.1. Big surprise: this paragraph is considered questionable by scholars. Antiquities wasn't published until 93 CE -- some 59 years from the supposed death of Jsus.

So even IF Josephus did mention Jsus who many thought to be the messiah (unlikely from a Jew) who had a brother (or relative) named James (and these are all very big "ifs, too) - Josephus was born too late to know if Jsus ever lived himself. He would simply have been relaying what others had said - assuming that the whole thing isn't a forgery.

It is to your credit that you admit the Greek passage was clearly altered by over-zealous Chrstian scribes. You wrote:

The Arabic doesn't say anything at all about Jsus - why would Josephus DENY Jsus if he never existed???

Michael Martin, in "The Case Against Chrstianity" wrote about this passage:

"Scholarly opinion is divided over whether this passage is a Chrstian interpolation. However, if Jsus did exist one would have expected Josephus to have mentioned Jsus more than once in his histories and to have said more about him. Moreover, as J. C. O'Neill has shown, Josephus mentions other leaders of Messianic proportions, ones with larger followings who might have been considered Messiahs be people who were looking for a Messiah. Furthermore, in the Antiquities more space was given to John the Baptist than to Jsus, and indeed, Josephus describes John as one would expect him to have described Jsus. . ." (page 49)

So, sorry, this is not a slam dunk for Jsus existence and indeed the fact that the later Chrstians so heavily modified Josephus - coupled with no other outside historical support for Jsus existence it does nothing to support the idea that Jsus of the GT existed. The biggest point here is that Josephus wasn't even born until after your GT says Jsus died. The source itself simply doesn't act as a witness for the historicity of Jsus.

BTW it is no concern of mine if Jsus was real or fictional. It is of great concern to you. The GT (Greek Text) is so full of falsehood that even if Jsus, a man thought to be a messiah, ever existed the whole question of the Sanhedrin as you originally asked is impossible. I also addressed that in my last post - which I note you did not respond to.

So I repeat: there is no historical proof that Jsus -- the Jsus of the Greek Text -- ever existed. There was a religion built around a man who may or may not have ever lived, or possibly around a 100% human being who bears very little resemblance to the tales in the GT (virgin birth and resurrections included).

(See also Pss. 30:13; 41:10; 118:17; Hos. 6:2)

"So that my soul will sing praises to You and not be silent. O L-rd, my G-d, I will thank You forever."

What does that have to do with Jsus being a messiah or god? Nothing. Anyone could say it, but in this case the "speaker" is King David.

Again, to understand line 13 we must read the ENTIRE psalm. This is about King David and it begins

"I will exalt You, O L-rd, for You have raised me up."

Did G-d raise Jsus up? Per your GT he was a poor man.

"You have not allowed my enemies to rejoice over me"

Jsus enemies supposedly killed him.

As with so many "proof texts" the entire psalm is ignored because it obviously doesn't fit Jsus. Only one sentence, even one word alone is used.

Line 3 says

"O L-rd, I have cried out to You, and You have healed me."

Well, the GT says that Jsus cried out to G-d and then he died. Ergo G-d did NOT heal him.

See what I mean about proof texts? Yours skips straight to line 13 ignoring all of these other lines that show clearly Jsus can't be the subject. You can read the entire Psalm in translation with commentary by the Jewish sage, Rashi here.

Psalm 118:17 -

This was your next reference and once again a single line taken out of context. Let's look at the conrtext.

The psalm is one of thanking G-d.

1. Give thanks to HaShem because He is good, for His kindness is eternal.
2. Israel shall now say, "For His kindness is eternal."
3. The house of Aaron shall now say, "For His kindness is eternal."
4. Those who fear HaShem shall now say, "For His kindness is eternal."

Now skip down to line 11

11. They encircled me, yea they surrounded me; in the name of HaShem that I shall cut them off.

Do you notice the similarity to Psalm 22 (which you also mentioned). David is surrounded by his enemies - and David will cut them off. Again, Jsus was killed by his enemies. He didn't cut them off now did he?

Here is line 17:

17. I shall not die but I shall live and tell the deeds of G-d.

Jsus didn't live. He died. This is the OPPOSITE of line 17. Now what does the very next line say? The one you didn't reference?

18. G-d has chastised me, but He has not delivered me to death.

G-d did not deliver David to death, but saved him from his enemies. But, per the GT, Jsus WAS delivered to his death. Just the opposite. So again, these things must be taken in context.

Psalm 22

Just a reminder that you are proselytizing and condescending when you say things like: "Psalm 22 describes the crucifixion exactly."

It has nothing at all to do with Jsus or Chrstians. This psalm is about King David.

You didn't mention a specific line here, but no doubt you are thinking of line 16. Are you speaking of piercings perhaps? More bad translations I'm afraid.

Psalm 22 is about King David who was surrounded by his enemies. Just who did you think the psalm was about? Chrstian Translation :

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. (KJV)

But the word "pierced" is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew! This is another example of Xian mistranslations to fulfill some "prophecy" that doesn't exist in the Tanach. In this case it is the idea the messiah will be "pierced" as Jsus was supposedly pierced (either in the side or nailed to a cross).

Here is the passage in Hebrew:

כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי:

Here is the correct translation:

Jewish Translation : Psalms

22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers encompassed me, like a lion are my hands and my feet.

As with many Xian mistranslations the translators mistranslate it in the "proof text" to "prove" some Jsus prophecy that isn't really there, but in other instances in which the word appears the Xian translators manage to translate it correctly.

Let's look at where k'ari shows up in the Tanakh. Here the Preposition (Ka - כ ) the Hebrew equivalent to "like" or "as" is used to give the word (Ari - ארי ) a preposition and a reading as "Like a lion." This comes from the word Aryah ( אריה ) meaning "lion."

The Hebrew word K'ari is found elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) Numbers 23:24 ( כארי ( [and as a young Lion], Numbers24:9 ( כארי ) [like a lion] , Isaiah 38:13( כארי ) [like a lion], Ezekiel 22:25 ( כארי ) [like a lion] and Psalms 22:17 [16] ( כארי ) [They Pierced] . All of which are highlighted red are rendered correctly by the KJV translators the one that is blue is not rendered correctly.

You are parroting the same tired "proof texts" we hear constantly. Psalm 22, Daniel 9:26. You really need to read the forum rules since proselytizing is against them and yet that is all you've done since you've arrived!