There seems to be many out there who consider themselves as scholars, and right from the inception, start their research with
the idea that the gospels are true.
A lot of that subculture variety seems to be scholars not of "whether" the gospels are true, but "how" they are true.
Noahide Dave.
History help
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 Noahide Dave |
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Posts: 68 (11/24/08 21:38:33) |
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On Dr Browns side |
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Posts: 213 (11/24/08 22:15:04) |
Why do you keep saying that I am insulting people? I am not. Make the argument you made to me to a credible historian and see what his or her response is.
I never made that claim so your point is irrelevant. I will reiterate the point of bringing up all these scholars below.
There is plenty of proof that Jesus existed, which is why the vast majority of scholars have come to the same conclusion and do not doubt his existence. I will give that proof a little later. These are not only or primarily Christian scholars. They are scholars of all backgrounds and are located all over the world, including Jews in Israel. Back to my original point, these scholars come to the same conclusions regarding their not doubting Jesus' existence. What do you do with all these scholars? You just dismiss them? Say they are not good scholars, don't use good methods, or are like people who did not realize the world is flat? Answer this next question honestly, Sophiee. Please. What would you say if the vast majority of historians and experts believed Jesus didn't exist, and a Christian were dismissing this fact with similar excuses as you. What would you say, honestly? Furthermore, what study have you done on this subject? What scholars have you read concerning Jesus' existence and what publications (books, articles, etc.)?
I will bring proof. There were contemporaries to Jesus that demonstrate he existed. Again, have you done any serious study at all? Which scholars, what books? Please let me know so I know if you are simply repeating what you've heard on websites and found on google or whether you did your own research of credible historians and scholars.
Ok. I'll get back to you on Jesus' existence in a little while. |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 1465 (11/25/08 02:12:02) |
Sophiee1 wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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SearchinMyRoots |
Calendar Question | ||
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Posts: 532 (11/25/08 08:39:00) |
Geting back to the calendar.
My question is this; The calendar that is used today, in the USA is in the year 2008 (soon to be 2009). That is based on "AD" which I think is referring to a Latin word. When and who created the calendar used today, or the start of the years, which supposedly started when jc was born? Obviously there is no proof of jc's birth, so how was "bc" and "ad" started? I realize this may not belong in the "counter-missionary form", or for that matter on any thread in this forum. But since the topic came up, I thought I would ask. Thank you. |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11466 (11/25/08 09:08:10) Moderator |
Jews don't use that term because it refers to Jsus as being divine (aka a god). We use the term "CE" for common era.
BTW, did any one notice that ODBS wrote a very long post to me yet again asserting that Jsus is not fictional, but not actually providing any proof saying "I'll get back to you on Jsus' existence in a little while." He had time for that long post but not enough to actually respond?
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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reuven65 |
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Posts: 5250 (11/25/08 10:12:05) |
No such thing as a "scholar" who will say J* is messiah. To be called a scholar, this person would also have to speak and read fluent Hebrew.
I've never met a xian who can claim both, believing J* to be messiah and who also reads the Jewish bible, The Tanach, in Hebrew....except one but he was
probably tripping his brains out while attempting to read it...oh wait, he couldn't read Hebrew at all at that time.
Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it.
Charles Dickens |
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dawn6773 |
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Posts: 11 (11/25/08 12:21:57) |
Wow - what happened when I was AFK. Yikes!
Sorry to take so long to get back. I didn't realize that there were any posts after my last one on the first page. I will figure out this forum thing yet. :> Got a little lost with the in between stuff. But I did notice that Sophie asked me to clarify my question. Sorry - I skipped over a bunch as I'm not into brawls...so, if you answered previously, I missed it. One of the "proofs" I have been given for the existence of jc is the fact that the Gregorian calendar (hope I spelled it correctly - sorry ProfBenTziyyon if I didn't...I totally commend and appreciate your need for accuracy) has a starting point: 0 c.e./a.d. (depending on your perspective). I also understand that the Jewish calendar begins from the 6th day of creation...the birth of man. Whereas the Gregorian calendar starts at the birth of jc. The Dec 25th thing throws me off with what I have been told, because of Jan 1 being the start date of the calendar, not Dec 25. I do understand the correlation of Dec 25 and the birth of many sun idols - especially Saturnalia. (That study, when I was in high school, made me run away from xmas very quickly and got my church leaders and families screaming "heretic" very loudly...crazy...and digressing) I was told that a.d. stands for Anno Domini (Spelling?) - interpreted "Year of our lord". This beginning point was used to "prove" the physical existence of jc as he was considered to be their idol in flesh. Funny thing is that the theologians I learned under (for the one who wanted proof of who I was taught under, Dr. Vernon Grounds being one name I remember...I was young and never very good with names, many others names escape me) couldn't agree as to when this person was born, but agreed that within 5 years of 0 c.e., this person was born. That somewhere around 30 c.e. was his demise. I understood them to say that the calendar was proof of his existence because, why would the calendar change from the old way of reckoning times and seasons to a new one, unless something significant as the "birth of god" happened. (As I write that last phrase, it sounds totally ridiculous to me..."birth of god"? Didn't HaShem always exist? To be born...oxymoron the right word? Digressing again. Focus.) All right, calendar.... So, with this background I was told that the existence of this Gregorian calendar proved that this person existed. I don't know when, how, or why it became necessary in the minds of its creators to make this calendar. So, my question was do any of you know about any of this? Can it be used as a proof? Even if it can, knowing that the historians of 0-150 c.e time period make no mention of him (unless someone can show me a valid one, not Josephus) and the proof texts from the Talmud are grossly and incorrectly misused and with the inaccuracies in the christian bible...could the calendar alone be strong enough evidence of his existence? It seems like evidence of someone desperate to unite people under one sun god and not many gods as was rampant at that time. Maybe I'm wrong. So, I ask. Does my question now make more sense?
Last Edited By: Sophiee1
11/25/08 12:28:45.
Edited 1 times.
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On Dr Browns side |
Sophiee and Reuvan | ||
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Posts: 214 (11/25/08 12:47:07) |
I hope they noticed because I made this clear from my first post. He had time for that long post but not enough to actually respond? Yes, because what I wrote does not require me to access certain books and scholarly sources, which I won't have access to for a little while. So, when I get access to those specific books, I will post. Simple as that. You never answered the two simple questions in my last post, Sophiee. Why?
This is another huge misstatement. There are scholars who will say Jesus is the Messiah. Of course, you will reject them, it doesn't mean they are not scholars. Not only are they scholars, but their work is very highly regarded in the scholarly world. These scholars are fluent in Biblical Hebrew, and often times Aramaic and Greek as well, sometimes teaching these languages at both the undergrad and grad level. There are Christian scholars who worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls from the time of their discovery till now. There are Christian scholars working in Israel, and there are Christians living in Israel who speak Hebrew. So, you are making a terribly inaccurate statement. |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11467 (11/25/08 12:54:52) Moderator |
Dawn, please check out posts #11 and #15 where I answered this point. I realize the thread has
gotten a little busy since they were posted, so just click on the number and you'll read the post.
In #11 I wrote that the current common calendar is the Greorgian, and it was officially put in place in 1582 of the common era. It modified the Julian calendar (from around 45 BCE). The Julian is too early to support the argument and the Gregorian too late! As I also pointed out in those two posts, the pagans always had a religious holiday on December 25th caled Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (which translates to "the birthday of the unconquered sun"). Various pagan gods were associated with this holiday including Mith-ras, who bears a very close resemblance indeed to Jsus. Pope Leo I (5th century CE) clearly accepts that the pagans celebrated Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th. So does the New Catholic Encyclopedia in an article on Constantine the Great (1967):
Nope, the December 25th date was a pagan holiday that just got accepted over time as the birth date of Jsus. If Jsus ever lived no one know when he was born (forget about the month and date they can't agree on a year). Some churches celebrate Chrstmas on January 7th, not December 25th. Clement of Alexandria wrote around 200 CE that in Egypt Jsus' birthday was celebrated on Pachon 25 -- around January 6 on our modern calendar. My source for this is The Catholic Encyclopedia, again. A calendar called De Pascha Computus from 243 CE gives Jsus' birthdate as March 28, not December 25. The Greek Text doesn't give a date at all for when Jsus might have been born -- if he was born at all. Again, we Jews don't care as he is immaterial to us. It really doesn't matter if there was a real Jsus or not, but isn't it interesting that a billion plus people worship a man they can't even prove lived?
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11468 (11/25/08 13:02:23) Moderator |
ODBS, it is not I making the huge misstatement, or assumption for that matter.
Most people just ASSUME that Jsus lived. The scholars of whom you speak start with the assumption that he lived. As we've repeated MANY times in this very thread, it simply does not MATTER to a Jew one way or the other. But none have them have PROVEN that he existed. Neither have you although you continue to write lengthy posts saying you are going to do so. I'm still waiting patiently.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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On Dr Browns side |
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Posts: 215 (11/25/08 13:21:31) |
Most people just ASSUME that Jsus lived. The scholars of whom you speak start with the assumption that he lived. As we've repeated MANY times in this very thread, it simply does not MATTER to a Jew one way or the other. No they don't, Sophiee. In fact, there will often be sections in the longer books on Jesus specifically dealing with sources demonstrating his existence. WHERE are YOU getting YOUR information? I've asked you this at least THREE times now. Where have you done research on this subject? Which scholars or publications have you read on this issue? But none have them have PROVEN that he existed. Neither have you although you continue to write lengthy posts saying you are going to do so. I'm not sure if you've read any of the historians or scholars who have written about Jesus' existence. Have you? How can you make this claim if you've never read any who present evidence for his existence? Like I just told you, I will post when I get access to my relevant literature, which I do not have access to at the moment. This is why I have not posted the evidence as of yet. Pretty simple, Sophiee. |
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dawn6773 |
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Posts: 12 (11/25/08 13:45:39) |
Sophie - sorry about skipping over the info you passed on. I got flustered with the extraneous (correct word?) argument inserted that was totally irrelevant to
what I wanted to know. Grrrrrrr. Can't those type of distractions be knocked elsewhere as simple folk like me get confused and flustered when those are
added? Probably against rules...but totally confusing to someone who's honestly trying to understand the perspective of a particular point of view. If I
want more C views than my past provided and these evangelicals knocking at my door provide, I'd go to a C's forum. Maybe irritable and
opinionated....but, aaah!, making it difficult to look for nuggets relevant to my question. Done venting. Moving on. Hope I didn't cross any boundaries.
I downloaded the messages and went over them offline. Thank you Sophie and ProfBenTziyyon (PBT ok to use? as your name comes up often). Both of your historical info was helpful. Maybe, the conspiracy theory attitude I was surrounded previously by is blocking your point a little. I know it is totally irrelevant in a Jew's mind...but this topic is hugely relevant in a c's mind, for if jc did not exist, then their religion would become like my original comment, like the Illiad and Odessy - nothing more than a myth even if it was taught as a bible for years. (Sorry about the confusion in the original message...I was not feeling well that day. Can see it in the "inaccuacies" and lack of explaining myself well. Oooops. :> ) So my conspiracy side wonders do I understand correctly that Constantine and his crew create the Gregorian calendar (GC)? Then the GC would have had an agenda attached to it. Constantine, to my understanding, wanted the religious bickering to stop and unite Rome under one religion. I know that there are other points of view, but this one seems logical to me. There were plenty other councils that met beforehand as well as afterwards, but Nicea (312 c.e.) was a biggie. It determined xmas, bunny day, and sungod day as well as the rules for how the church was to be ran. As I recall, it was mentioned that 1582 was when the calendar was created...in reality the big days in the C calendar were determined more than a 1000 years before hand at Nicea. With my head swirling with all the info you both gave and my understanding, my head is swimming. I don't see how the GC can be proof. It would seem that if it was, then the calendar should have been created 1200 - 1500 years earlier when they began to propagate this religion. Maybe my logic is wrong...but it seems strange that if this event was so important, that a change would have been made much earlier. Anyhow - thank you. I think I have what I can handle presently. I'm getting a bit dizzy with info. Thanks |
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Bradley |
SMR - regarding "Calendar Question" | ||
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Posts: 94 (11/25/08 14:51:30) |
Regarding the invention of "A.D. / B.C." and origin of xtian counting of years, research the name "Dionysius Exiguus". Dionysius Exiguus (aka Danny the dwarf, or, Dennis the little) is commonly considered to be " the inventor of the Christian calendar" in the 6th
century CE.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 1468 (11/25/08 14:53:43) |
dawn6773 wrote:
...., 4BCE, 3BCE, 2BCE, 1BCE,
1CE, 2CE, 3CE, 4CE, .....
Scientists, on the other hand, use a system that utilises both negative AND positive numbers AND ALSO ZERO, so that
there is a continuous sequence of year-numbers like this:
............. The Jewish calendar actually begins almost a full year BEFORE the creation of Man, because the Adam is deemed to have been created on Rosh Hashanah (Tishri 1st) of Year TWO, the first five of the "six days of creation" being considered as the last five days of Elul of Year ONE - which is known in Rabbinic writing as שְׁנַת תֹּהוּ Shnat Tohu - the "Void Year" (because all but its last six days were before anything yet existed!) - following the Talmudic principle יוֹם אֶחָד בְּשָׁנָה חָשׁוּב שָׁנָה "one day of a year is counted as a whole year" (Rosh Hashanah 2b, 7b, 10a, 10b; Niddah 45a). http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11469 (11/25/08 15:54:35) Moderator |
It is impossible to reply to ODBS' "proof" of Jsus existence when so far he has shown none.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11470 (11/25/08 16:00:48) Moderator |
Dawn, don't get "too dizzy." If the calendar were based around the date of Jsus' birth wouldn't that have been January 1st and not
December 25th? After all the later is just a date in the middle of a month. As I showed in my earlier post -- the GT doesn't mention when Jsus was born (if
he was born) and the dates ranged from January to March, April and December -- probably a few more I don't know about.
December 25 is a good date because it was a familiar pagan holy day and the Romans did that with Easter and a few other Chrstian holidays. As you saw, a number of my sources came from the Catholic Encyclopedia. These are known historical facts, easily proven (unlike the existence of Jsus himself).
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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On Dr Browns side |
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Posts: 216 (11/25/08 16:19:26) |
It is impossible to reply to ODBS' "proof" of Jsus existence when so far he has shown none. Why do you keep bringing this up as if I am hiding something or as if I am saying that I have proved something or presented proofs when I have not said this at all, or tried to make it seem so. For what seems like the hundredth time, I do not have access to my scholarly resources on this issue, so when I get them I will post. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? BTW, you STILL have not answered my questions. Why? Please do so, as they are important. Here they are again: WHERE are YOU getting YOUR information on this issue? I've asked you this at least FOUR times now. Where have you done research on this subject? Which scholars or publications have you read on this issue? I don't know if you've read any of the historians or scholars who have written about Jesus' existence. Have you? How can you make the claims you are making if you've never read any scholars who present evidence for his existence? |
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dawn6773 |
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Posts: 14 (11/25/08 16:30:14) |
Thanks. Before I go for the day, Sophie, several times you mentioned GT. Is this the christian bible?
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 11471 (11/25/08 18:47:59) Moderator |
ODBS said:ODBS, if you read my posts you will see that I have GIVEN references. You might want to go back and check as there are quite a few, including the Catholic Encyclopedia. To your second question I have read many ancient sources (none of whom lived when Jsus supposedly lived) who supposedly wrote about him (many are later forgeries, such as the Josephus Antiquities chapter 18 one). When you finally respond with "proof" no doubt I'll respond with proof of my own! I have also read some of the modern authors, including one you've mentioned. As I said, modern scholars are assuming Jsus was "real" and do not have any more proof than you have shown to date. For Dawn, sorry -- I use acronyms so often I forget sometimes not everyone knows them. GT = Greek Text = Chrstian "bible."
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Ezekah |
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Posts: 151 (11/25/08 20:36:20) |
ProfBenTziyyon wrote:following the Talmudic principle יוֹם אֶחָד בְּשָׁנָה חָשׁוּב שָׁנָה "one day of a year is counted as a whole year" (Rosh Hashanah 2b, 7b, 10a, 10b; Niddah 45a).Interesting...that's the same rule that the IRS uses. |
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