Yuku free message boards

Cosmic Traveler wrote:

---

Sophieel,

I just don't see the point of the history lesson as it applies to my life today. What do you want me to do personally regarding the Jewish people?

Cosmic Traveler wrote:

---

CT: If your death statistics are true, why would anyone want to be a Jew? It's safer to not be one. Can't G_d deliver the Jews as He did in Egypt? This is an honest question -- where is G_d in all of this?

• Chemistry (30 prize winners, 20% of world total, 28% of US total)
• Economics (26 prize winners, 42% of world total, 56% of US total)
• Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
• Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)³
  
• Physics (47 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
• Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 28% of world total, 41% of US total)

• Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (26% of recipients)
• Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (34% of recipients)
• Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (170 recipients, 38% of total)

Isaiah 52:13 Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty.

14 Just as multitudes were astonished over you (saying) "His appearance is too marred to be a man's, and his visage to be human,

15 so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths (in amazement) for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.

53:1 Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HaShem been revealed?

2 Formerly he grew like a sapling or like the root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire him.

3 He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despise and we had no regard for him.

4 But in truth it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried -- but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d and afflicted!

5 He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds we were healed.

6 We have all strayed like sheep each of us turning his own way and HaShem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was persecuted and afflicted but did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.

8 Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people's sin.

9 He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy (submitted) to his executions for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.

10 HaShem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt he would see offspring and live long days and the desire or HaShem would succeed in his hand.

11. He would see (the purpose) and be satisfied with his soul's distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.

12. Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils -- in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.

Note that "desired" and "afflicted" are used. They are used again to describe Israel in Isaiah 54 -- and remember that chapters are a Chrstian invention.

Isaiah 54:5 For your Master is your Maker, HaShem, Master of Legions, is His Name: your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; G-d of all the world will he be called. 6 For like a wife who had been forsaken and melancholy has HaShem called you, and like a wife of one's youth who had become despised, said your G-d. 7 For but a brief moment have I forsaken you, and with abudant mercy will I gather you in. 8 With a slight wrath have I concealed My countenance from you for a moment, but with eternal kindness shall I show you mercy, said your Redeemer, HaShem.

Footnotes in the Artscroll Stone Edition T'nach may help you to better understand the prophet:

52:13 i.e. G-d's servant the people of Israel (Rashi)

52:15 Just as Israel had once been astonishgly degraded, so it will astonish the nations by its exaltedness when the time of redemption arrives.

53:1-3 this is the prophecy foretelling what the nations and their kings will exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews (vv. 1-3) with their new realization of Israel's grandeur (vv 4-7).

53:5 we brought suffering upon Israel for our own selfish purposes; it was not, as we had claimed, that G-d was punishing Israel for its own evil behavior.

53:6 We sinned by inflicting punishment upon Israel. Such oppression is often described as "Hashem's punishment" (see 10:5, Habakkuk 1:12), for He decreed that it should happen (Abarbanel).

53:8 When Israel's exile is finally ended the nations will marvel that such a generation could have survived the expulsion from "the land of the living, i.e. Israel, that the nations had sinfully inflicted upon it.

53:9 Ordinary Jews chose to die like common criminals, rather than renounce their faith; and wealthy Jews were killed for no reason other than to enable their wicked conquerors to confiscate their riches (Radak).

53:10 That is, Israel. G-d replies to the nations that Israel's suffering was a punishment for its own sins; and when the people realize this and repent, they will be redeemed and rewarded.

53:11 Israel will teach the nations of G-d's righteousness.

53:5 we (the non-Jewish nations) brought suffering upon Israel for our own selfish purposes (like stealing the Jews homes and belongings and killing them); it was not, as we (the non-Jewish nations) had claimed, that G-d was punishing Israel for its own evil behavior.

53:6 We (the non Jewish nations) sinned by inflicting punishment upon Israel.

Cosmic Traveler wrote:

---

Explain vs 10 about G_d taking pleasure in punishing His servant, where you say this is the Jewish people.

Lets take this in two steps: could it be Jsus and could it be the Jews?

It can't be Jsus because Isaiah 53:10 says that IF the servant admits guilt then he will see living children. Zera. First of all, Chrstians say Jsus was without guilt -- so how could this apply to Jsus who never had children?

And don't try that "spiritual children" bit again -- zera means the physical offspring from the seed (sperm, egg, etc. of a person, not followers).

Zera does NOT ever mean spiritual offspring.

Ever.

Zera shows up 230 times and not once, not ONCE does it speak of figurative offspring.

NEVER.

EVER.

You've been hoodwinked.

In Isaiah 53:10, however, the term (zera) is not a "stand alone" noun; it is an idiomatic expression that involves a verb in conjunction with the noun, i.e., the Hebrew expression is (yir'eh zera), literally, [he] shall see zera.

The KJV added the term "his" before the word seed - BUT IT IS NOT THERE. The Hebrew term for "his seed" is the word (zar'o), which is not the word that appears in Isaiah 53:10.

You've been snowed. Hoodwinked. Lied to. There is no way this could be about Jsus, and it doesn't in any way refer to spiritual followers.

In Hebrew when you combine a verb with the compound noun (like zera), whatever its application may be, the reference is always to physical offspring.

Want examples?

Mazri'a zera means yielding seed, (Bereshit 1:11,12);

and

Vehaqeim zera, means [you] establish offspring, (Bereshit 38:8);

and

Zar'acha asher tizra means your zera that you will sow (Isaiah 30:23);

and

U'nehayeh mei'avinu zara means "let us bring to life zera from our father" (Beresit 19:32and Bereshit19:34);

Shall I continue?

Bemoshech ha'zara is the one who carries the zera [for sowing] (Amos 9:13).

The idiomatic expression in Isaiah 53:10 is yir'eh zera. It is similar to these examples, it refers to one who will be able to procreate and see his descendants.

There is a very similar expression, to -- ra'ah vanim, [he] saw sons, that is used several times, and it clearly demonstrates that seeing seed/children refers to having and seeing biological descendants.

In the following passage, the reader is told here that Joseph saw his own descendants of several generations. Remember, Ephraim and Menasheh were the sons of Joseph:

Genesis 50:23 - And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third generation; also the children of Machir, the son of Menasheh, were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

The next case speaks of the righteous persons and their families experiencing the bliss in seeing their descendants - a line from a famous Israeli Hassidic song:

Psalms 128:6 - And you shall see your children's children; peace be on Israel.

In the next passage, Job, the righteous Gentile, experienced this bliss, as written in Psalms 128:

Job 42:16 - And Job lived after this a hundred and forty years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations.

So, seeing seedor seeing sons or seeing children are idiomatic expressions used in the T'nach which describes the experience of seeing one's own family propagate for one or more generations.

Isaiah 53;10 also says that the servant will have a long life. Did Jsus have a long life?

Supposedly he died in his 30s, not long by anyone's standard.

the Hebrew words ya'arich yamin (long life) in this verse do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end.

These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in Tanach to anyone who is to live forever -- as in Jsus was a god and has eternal life.

In fact, the words ya'arich yamin appear in a number of places throughout Jewish scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one. When the Jewish scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words used are l'chayai olam.

So since Jsus didn't have children or a long life why would anyone think this is about him?

Isaiah 53:10 does apply to the Jews. It says (Artscroll):

10 HaShem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt he would see offspring and live long days and the desire or HaShem would succeed in his hand.

The point here is that IF the servant realizes that he sinned (and again, Jsus was supposedly without sin), then G-d would give him many children and a long life. If not he would take the long path.

This is referring back to Torah which says that the sins of the father are not visited on the children, but IF one continues the same sins from one generation to another then one must pay for those sins. While there has always been a righteous remnant of Israel, there are also those who turn away from G-d. This is why we say if for only ONE day all of Israel would repent, the messiah would come.