- it's only a statement from Balaam and Samuel respectively, not from God himself
- it contradicts Genesis 6:6 -> "Does God repent/regret or doesn't He?"
You folks have way more experience countering than I have, so: Any ideas? Thanks for your help!
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studentgirl |
Numbers 23:19 vs. Genesis 6:6 |
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A Christian I've been discussing with brought up the following two arguments in response to Numbers 23:19 (the context being: me citing Numbers 23:19 and 1
Samuel 15:29 as part of an argument against Jesus being God):
- it's only a statement from Balaam and Samuel respectively, not from God himself - it contradicts Genesis 6:6 -> "Does God repent/regret or doesn't He?" You folks have way more experience countering than I have, so: Any ideas? Thanks for your help! |
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UriYosef |
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studentgirl wrote:So, this person doesn't believe that G-d communicates with His prophets. One needs only to read the story of Bil'am, Numbers Chapters 22-24, to realize that G-d communicated with him, both directly and indirectly through an angel, even though he was a Gentile. As it concerns the Prophet Samuel, one of the 55 true Jewish prophets listed in the Hebrew Bible, this person clearly hasn't read the two books of Samuel very carefully. Had s/he done so, s/he would have realized how ridiculous such a statement is. studentgirl wrote:The ascription of human actions and emotions to G-d is known as anthropomorphism. This technique is used throughout the Hebrew Bible to make intelligible to the finite, human mind that which relates to the Infinite. In other words, the Hebrew Bible speaks the ordinary language of people. Your Christian correspondent neither understands this concept nor the context of those passages in which anthropomorphism is used to give us a better understanding. In fact, since her/his bible contains the "Old Testament", arguing such an issue is a self-defeating task, since it raises questions about the validity of the "Old Testament" on which, according to Christians, the GT is based. None of us humans is privvy to G-d's ledger, and it is only through a simplified language in the Hebrew Bible that we even get an appreciation of His omnipotence and omniscience. UriYosef
Our raison d'être:
WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a) The fruits of our effort: The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!
Last Edited By: UriYosef
05/03/09 19:28:27.
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Netanel |
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The Christian apparently does not believe in the God of Yisraél and His Torah. Just a few verses earlier: B'midbar 23:16-20 16. Adonai happened upon Bil'am and put a matter into his mouth; and said, "Go back to Balaq and so shall you say." 17. He came to him and behold! he was standing by his burnt-offering and the officers of Moav were with him. Balaq said to him, "What did Adonai speak?" 18. He declaimed his parable and said: "Arise, Balaq, and hear; give ear to me, son of Tzippor." 19. God is not a man that He should be deceitful, nor a human being that He should relent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm? 20. Behold! to bless have I received - He has blessed, and I shall not retract it. The statement "lo ish Él vichazzév u-ven adam v'yitneham" ("God is not a man that he should be deceitful, nor a human being that He should relent") is a part of the "matter" Adonai "put into his mouth". Bil'am makes clear in verses such as 12 ("Is it not so that whatever Adonai puts in my mouth, that I must take heed to speak?") that it is not within his power to "go off the script" so to speak. And "only" Shmuél? "Only" one of the greatest prophets of all time? "Only" the one guy who had the legitimacy and authority in the eyes of all the Bnei Yisraél to annoint the first two legitimate kings of Yisraél, the second of whom supplied all of the kings of Y'hudah, along with the eventual King Messiah? "Only" him? Does this person honestly think that Shmuél was speaking out of line when he uttered this statement? That he was prophecying one moment, and then suddenly going off the script and throwing in his own irrelevent two-cents the next? What weak apologetics on this person's part. And what about the T'hillim (Psalm) which Christians love to misquote so often? T'hillim 8:5 5. What is man that you should remember him, and son of man that you should be mindful of him? T'hillim 144:3 3. Adonai, what is man that you should know him, son of man that you should consider him? T'hillim 146:3 3. Do not trust in princes, in son of man, who has no salvation. What about the prophet Y'shayahu, whom, again, Christian love to misquote? Y'shayahu 51:12 12. I, yea I am He Who consoles you; who are you that you fear man who will die and the son of man, who shall be made [as] grass? Y'shayahu 56:2 2. Fortunate is the man who will do this and son of man who will hold fast to it, he who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it and guards his hand from doing any evil. And for good measure, let's see what Séfer Iyyov has to say about this. Iyyov 25:6 6. How much less, man, who is a worm, and the son of man, who is a maggot!" Ouch. Crystal clear. Unfortunately to some clarity is a plague.
Last Edited By: Netanel
05/03/09 19:46:08.
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studentgirl |
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Thanks for your answers.
Only accepting direct quotes from God (...
and God said: "...".) would actually get rid of nearly the whole NT in an instance.
As would not accepting the "OT" (without which you can't have the "NT") like you pointed out. Regarding his second point: could anyone help me understand the exact meaning of the original Hebrew that got translated into "repent"? Bereshit 6:6: "And the Lord ינחם that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart." vs. Bamidbar 23:19: "God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should יתנחם . Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?" and D'varim 32:36: "When the Lord will judge His people, and will יתנחם His servants, when He sees that the power is increasing, and none is controlled or strengthened." Tehilim 135:14: "For the Lord will judge His people and יתנחם for His servants." Thanks!
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Sophiee1 |
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Double standard alert! You said "accepting direct quotes from G-d (... and G-d said: "...".) " and yet your first reference was Bereshit
6:6 which doesn't say "and G-d says" -- it is not given as a quote:
G-d regretted that He had made man on earth, and He was pained to His very core.Is this a game of "Simon says"? If the verse doesn't say "G-d says" it is worthless?? Then by your own standard, you can't use Bereshit 6:6 for the argument. Studentgirl, G-d wrote the ENTIRE Torah. Every single word of it.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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Sophiee1 |
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Commentary:
(From the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe)
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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studentgirl |
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Sophiee1 wrote:Sophie: I know that. It was the guy I'm discussing with that used that double standard, not me. Me writing "Only accepting direct quotes from God (... and God said: "...".) would actually get rid of nearly the whole NT in an instance. As would not accepting the "OT" (without which you can't have the "NT") like you pointed out." was actually to show that the double standard the guy employed destroys the basis for his Christianity - he shot himself squarely in the foot ... Sorry if my writing wasn't clear... |
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Sophiee1 |
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But my point IS that Genesis 6:6 is NOT a direct quote by G-d, so why is this person accepting IT but not the other quotes?
Double standard. We seem to have come to the same conclusion.
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
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05/04/09 11:58:54.
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Proteus |
GOOD THREAD! | ||
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I may weigh in here sometime, but not until (at the earliest) next week.
P.
The most persuasive case anyone can make for one's religion is the way one lives one's life. |
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SBP |
Important Issue to Keep in Mind | ||
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One of the most basic theological ideas for modern Christianity is the concept that the Gospels supercede the Torah. It is not the same to say that they
replace the Books of Moses but that they hold greater weight in all theological questions. This was one of the first things taught at a Christian seminary.
To the modern Christian the Torah is just a collection of History and Laws of the Jews. The Torah is easy target to quote random passages when it suits their
need. So when you see a misquote from the Tanakh, it is not the Gospels at error but the Hebrew Text not being understood correctly.
When it comes to Numbers 23:19 an incident I had with a Christian minister and friend is a great why to explain how many Christian process their theology. When him and I were talking at the local Starbucks he brought to my attention that it was a "false prophet" speaking. Since it wasn't a "true prophet" not every thing that is said can be counted as correct. I left it at that. Then the next week he was confronting some Mormon missionaries and used that exact passage to tell them that God is not at one time a man like their faith teaches. When I confronted him on this new found confiendence in Numbers 23:19 he just stated that he changed his mind. He quickly threw in that because it was not future tense, like there is, it did not mean that God will not one day be a man and a son of man. In short what I am saying is that sometimes you can not win. They go to their belief on what the Gospels are saying and then enforce it on everything else. Just a small view of what goes on in the mind of Christian missionaries and theologians. |
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Netanel |
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Thank you for sharing that experience, SBP. We have definitely encountered such attitudes.
Last Edited By: Netanel
06/18/09 09:50:59.
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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SBP wrote:
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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SBP wrote:They showed the typical missionary ploy of ignoring the Torah IN CONTEXT as well as the 'nach. I HaShem do not change Malachai 3:6 If G-d doesn't change then that means if He is NOT a man He will NEVER be a man. Pretty clear! How about:
Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am HaShem, and besides Me there is no Savior." Isaiah 43:11Alsovery clear. NO god was formed before G-d and there will be none AFTER him (aka Jsus). There is ONLY HaShem and besides Him there is NO SAVIOR! Do you suppose the Mormons ever think of THOSE quotes? There are more: I am HaShem, and there is no other; besides Me there is no G-d; Isaiah 45:5 There is no other! Besides Him there is NO god! Remember the first things of old, that I am G-d and there is no other; I am G-d and there is none like Me. Isaiah 46:9 And
Exodus 3:14. G-d said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" This is often mistranslated as, "I Am Who I Am," but that is not a very good translation. It puts to death the
idea that those Mormons pitched that G-d can become a man. G-d will be what He was and always well be. He does not changed!
The term Ehyeh is a first person future tense conjugation of the verb "to be." Ehyeh-asher-ehyeh translated
should read: "I will be what I will be"
This clearly says that G-d is as He will be. He is unchanging. He will be in the future exactly as He was to Moses. He is not a man and He will never be a man.
So we have statement after statement clearly saying G-d is not a man (ish or adam, take your pick).
We have clear statements saying G-d does not change. He is what He is. He will be what He will be.
Go back a few lines in Exodus 3. G-d says:
Exodus 3:6. And He said, "I am the G-d of your father, the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob." Then we have:
Exodus 3:15 15. And G-d said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, HaShem G-d of your forefathers, the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation." But perhaps the most important part comes next. G-d has just told us He is the G-d of the past - the
G-d of our fathers. The G-d of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob. He has then told us He is the G-d of the future
"I will be what I will be."
This is my name FOREVER. This is how I should be mentioned in every
generation.
His name FOREVER.
J-sus was a "god they did not know" at Mount Sinai so he is a false god (Deuteronomy 13).
A god who was a man (G-d is not a man) and a god with a different name (J-sus).
Not J-sus. Not a man-god.
G-d is not a man.
G-d is unchanging.
Deuteronomy 32:39, See now that I myself am He! There is no god except Me . . This is His name forever.
This shows clearly that G-d will NEVER be a man.
And lest you have any doubts left:
סופי
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Last Edited By: Sophiee1
06/19/09 16:32:08.
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avivai |
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hello SBP,
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