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Scalia

Grape Juice

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Posts: 4

(06/22/09 16:55:17)

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Hello! Is mishrah enabiem the correct term for grape juice? If not, what is the correct term? Thanks, in advance!

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12344

(06/22/09 17:36:23)

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מיץ ענבים

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2163

(06/22/09 18:15:19)

Sophiee1 wrote:
מיץ ענבים

If "Scalia" cannot read Hebrew (and I suspect that this is indeed the case because he/she employed transliteration in the lead post), מִיץ עֲנָבִים is "mitz 'anavim".

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 06/22/09 21:15:21. Edited 1 times.

Scalia

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Posts: 6

(06/22/09 23:24:15)

Thank you, Professor. You are correct. I cannot read Hebrew. Is my transliteration correct? Is that what the Hebrew characters mean? Forgive my density. I just want to nail this down. Thanks again!

Scalia

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Posts: 7

(06/22/09 23:50:00)

I'm asking in relation to Numbers 6:3 (I should have added that to my original question). I've seen various translations render it "grape juice" while others translate it (mishrah enabeiam) "liquor of grapes." Which is correct?

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12347

(06/23/09 07:57:41)

Moderator

Your transliteration is not correct. The Professor's is correct.

The first word is "mem-yud-tsadi sofit" (letters) which would be pronounced as "mitz" not as "mishrah."

The second word is "ayin-nun-vet-yud-mem sofit" (letters) which would be pronounced as " 'anavim" not as "enabiem."

There are no letters in mitz indicating an "ah" sound and the "vet" in anavim is pronounced as a "v" not a "b." (It is a vet, not a bet).

As for which is correct in Numbers 6:3, they ALL are correct. From "The Living Torah" translation of Bambidar (Numbers) 6:3:

He must separate himself completely from wine and wine-brandy. He may not even drink vinegar made from wine and wine-brandy. He shall not drink any grape beverage, and he shall not eat any grapes or raisins.

Transliteration: Miyayin veshechar yazir chomets yayin vechomets shechar lo yishteh vechol-mishrat anavim lo yishteh va'anavim lachim viveshim lo yochel.

The Judaica Press Translation has:

He shall abstain from new wine and aged wine; he shall not drink [even] vinegar made from new wine or aged wine, nor shall he drink anything in which grapes have been steeped, and he shall eat neither fresh grapes nor dried ones.

Commentary by Rashi (a Jewish sage) found with the Judaica Press translation says:

from new wine and aged wine: Heb. מִיַיִּן וְשֵׁכָר. As Targum [Onkelos] renders:"From new wine and aged wine," for when wine has been aged, it intoxicates מְשַׁכֵּר.

מיין ושכר: כתרגומו מחמר חדת ועתיק, שהיין משכר כשהוא ישן:

anything in which grapes have been steeped: Heb. מִשְׁרַת עֲנָבִים. [The word מִשְׁרַת is] an expression denoting steeping in water, or any other liquid. In the language of the Mishnah, there are many [such examples]: We may not steep (אֵין שׁוֹרִין) ink or dye [in water on the eve of Sabbath] (Shab. 17b); a nazirite who steeped (שֶׁשָּׁרָה) his bread in wine (Nazir 34b). וכל משרת: לשון צביעה במים וכל משקה, ובלשון משנה יש הרבה אין שורין דיו וסמנים (שבת יז ב), נזיר ששרה פתו ביין (נזיר לד ב):

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Last Edited By: UriYosef 06/23/09 09:27:16. Edited 4 times.

Scalia

Grape Juice

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Posts: 8

(06/23/09 08:42:09)

Yes! That's what I was looking for. Thank you so much, Sophiee! :-)

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2165

(06/23/09 09:32:34)

Sophiee1 wrote:
The first word is "mem-yud-tsion" (letters) which would be pronounced as "mitz" not as "mishrah."

The three letters (of the first word) are מ mem, י yod, ץ tzaddi sofit (or "terminal tzaddi", the elongated form of the letter צ tzaddi used when it occurs at the end of a word). There is no letter called "tsion". You really ought to take a moment to read what you have written, Sophie; I am sure you know what you intended to write but, like so many others, you always seem to be in too much of a hurry and so make silly mistakes. It is especially important when teaching to make sure you get everything 100% right, because the person you are teaching has no way of compensating for these silly slips.

Sophiee1 wrote:
As for which is correct in Numbers 6:3....

What the dickens does "steeped" mean? The expression וְכָל־מִשְׁרַת עֲנָבִים v'chol mishrat anavim in B'midbar 6:3 means "and any [fluid] in which grapes have been soaked". The word מִשְׁרַת mishrat is the constructive (possessive) case of מִשְׁרָה mishrah, a noun derived from the verb שרה (shin, résh, hé) which means to soak or to infuse. The word מִשְׁרַת mishrat means "an infusion of...." (in modern usage, however, the term used for an infusion is שְׁרִיָּה sh'riyyah).

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12351

(06/23/09 10:39:29)

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Yep, some times I type faster than I think! Thanks for the correction on tsadee sofit (final tsadee). I don't ALWAYS make mistakes, just often enough!

As for "steeping" that is a quote from the Rashi commentary in the Judaica Press translation. Steeping (or steeped) means to soak something. For example, when we make tea we "steep" the tea in hot water.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2167

(06/23/09 11:40:37)

Sophiee1 wrote:
For example, when we make tea we "steep" the tea in hot water.

The word used in contemporary English for "soaking" tea leaves in boiling water is infusing. "Steeping" sounds rather archaic.

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Sophiee1

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Posts: 12352

(06/23/09 12:04:09)

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Where I come from the word "steeping" is common for tea. Infusion isn't very common. Perhaps it depends on where one lives?

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2168

(06/23/09 12:45:56)

Sophiee1 wrote:
Where I come from the word "steeping" is common for tea. Infusion isn't very common....

You didn't read what I wrote; I said "in contemporary English". NOT IN AMERICAN!!!

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 06/23/09 13:23:21. Edited 1 times.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12353

(06/23/09 12:56:44)

Moderator

Professor, I have lived in England. The term used by my friends was "steep."

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 2169

(06/23/09 13:36:24)

Sophiee1 wrote:
Professor, I have lived in England. The term used by my friends was "steep."

When I was at Oxford University in the 1940s after WWII, tea was always "infused"; a young man of my acquaintance at that time even possessed a solid silver gadget, not unlike a pair of slotted spoons joined together by a spring-loaded hinge-like mechanism, which was known as a "tea infuser".

A modern (stainless steel) tea-infuser

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Netanel

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Posts: 1737

(06/23/09 14:19:05)

The two words are synonymous. Steep, according to Merriam-Webster, has its origin in 14th century Middle English (stepen). I don't know about Britain, but in the US it is still in use (i.e. we are a people steeped in Torah).

Last Edited By: Netanel 06/23/09 14:21:53. Edited 1 times.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12354

(06/23/09 14:38:36)

Moderator

The Brits I knew considered a tea infuser such as the one in your picture as barbaric. The tea tastes of metal (so they say).

Instead what one is to do is to boil water in a kettle. As it begins to boil one pours a bit in the teapot to heat the pot. Then one places loose tea (one teaspoon per person and one for "the pot" in the teapot. Let the tea "steep." Stir before serving.

Pour the tea into a tea cup and add milk or lemon (whichever is preferred). You can pour the tea directly and simply not drink the loose tea at the bottom or you can use a tea strainer (pictured below):

Having lived in London I am very fastidious about my tea, and to this day take mine with milk.

PS -- always take the pot to the kettle, never the kettle to the pot. You want water right off the boil.

סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12

Bradley

re Steeped or infused

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Posts: 108

(06/23/09 16:09:13)

Having been born in the UK and raised there until age 20, might I therefore, as one both steeped in British culture (Lo Aleynou) and infused with certain British sensibilities, add to your discussion here?
The difference here between steeped and infused stems from the point of view of the speaker. The terms are not synonymous.
One drinks the infusion made from steeping tea leaves in boiling water. Alternatively, if one steeps prunes in water, one then may drink the infusion (prune liquor thereby obtained) and eat the steeped prunes. Normally one does not eat steeped tea leaves although they are held to have medicinal properties when applied topically.
Enjoy.

Rhysthechocotortie

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Posts: 10

(06/23/09 16:55:48)

Where I lived in West Yorkshire, England, people mash not brew tea.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 12356

(06/23/09 17:18:39)

Moderator

Bradley wrote:
Having been born in the UK and raised there until age 20, might I therefore, as one both steeped in British culture (Lo Aleynou) and infused with certain British sensibilities, add to your discussion here?
The difference here between steeped and infused stems from the point of view of the speaker. The terms are not synonymous.
One drinks the infusion made from steeping tea leaves in boiling water. Alternatively, if one steeps prunes in water, one then may drink the infusion (prune liquor thereby obtained) and eat the steeped prunes. Normally one does not eat steeped tea leaves although they are held to have medicinal properties when applied topically.
Enjoy.