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Posts: 975
Tue, 12-Jul-11 09:28:42
ProfBenTziyyon wrote: weboh wrote: Rather the familar spirits had the ability to control her.... Weboh, you are falling into the classic trap of trying to “interpret” a translation. Remember that translations can NEVER be precise and that I only wrote “or controls” in brackets. The Hebrew phrase éshĕt ba'alat ov literally means “a woman [who is] the master/user of an Ov”, but even that is misleading and open to misinterpretation because of the wide range of ways in which the word ba'al (and its feminine equivalent ba'alah) can be used. Furthermore, an ov was not some kind of “spirit”, but involved the practitioner using a kind of ventriloquism to create the illusion of a voice coming from his/her armpit.
weboh wrote: Rather the familar spirits had the ability to control her....
Weboh, you are falling into the classic trap of trying to “interpret” a translation. Remember that translations can NEVER be precise and that I only wrote “or controls” in brackets. The Hebrew phrase éshĕt ba'alat ov literally means “a woman [who is] the master/user of an Ov”, but even that is misleading and open to misinterpretation because of the wide range of ways in which the word ba'al (and its feminine equivalent ba'alah) can be used. Furthermore, an ov was not some kind of “spirit”, but involved the practitioner using a kind of ventriloquism to create the illusion of a voice coming from his/her armpit.
Posts: 5945
Tue, 12-Jul-11 09:57:58
Posts: 20703
Tue, 12-Jul-11 10:00:21
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Tue, 12-Jul-11 10:12:29
Tue, 12-Jul-11 10:43:25
Proteus wrote: ... to the release of Gideon's latest post.I'm surprised he still posits Pantera as the original for the GT Jesus, after the extensive pertinent discussion with Netanel on the ANNA THE PROPHETESS thread.
Tue, 12-Jul-11 12:23:56
It puzzles me that it seems to be so important — to you — that he did not live. Suppose there was once such a person, quite possibly little different from you or me. Would the world be different? If so, how? How would your worldview have to change?
Tue, 12-Jul-11 12:29:09
I have no problem regarding Jesus as legendary.Davy Crockett is legendary.Even John Holmes is legendary.But IMO the original is a 1st century figure, and neither Pantera nor Notzri qualifies.But again, his historicity is immaterial to Judaism.My puzzle is, how come his non-historicity is so material to you?
Tue, 12-Jul-11 13:14:33
Proteus wrote: I have no problem regarding Jesus as legendary.Davy Crockett is legendary.Even John Holmes is legendary.But IMO the original is a 1st century figure, and neither Pantera nor Notzri qualifies.But again, his historicity is immaterial to Judaism.My puzzle is, how come his non-historicity is so material to you?
Posts: 7963
Tue, 12-Jul-11 15:43:35
GIDEON MAGE wrote:may we please see some documentation of this
The definition of the Hebrew term בַּֽעַל־אוֹב ba'al ov is given by the Mishnah (Treatise Sanhedrin 7:7)
בַּֽעַל־אוֹב—זֶה פִּיתּוּם הַמְדַבֵּר מִשֶּׁחְיוֹ.“Ba'al ov—this is a ventriloquist who speaks from his armpit”
The word used here for a ventriloquist, פִּיתּוּם pittum, is the same as the Greek πύθων python (no connection to the boa snake) and the Latin pythonicus, which Jerome uses to translate ov in the Vulgate (Vayikra 20:27).
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Wed, 13-Jul-11 07:26:48
ProfBenTziyyon wrote: GIDEON MAGE wrote: may we please see some documentation of this The definition of the Hebrew term בַּֽעַל־אוֹב ba'al ov is given by the Mishnah (Treatise Sanhedrin 7:7) בַּֽעַל־אוֹב—זֶה פִּיתּוּם הַמְדַבֵּר מִשֶּׁחְיוֹ.“Ba'al ov—this is a ventriloquist who speaks from his armpit” The word used here for a ventriloquist, פִּיתּוּם pittum, is the same as the Greek πύθων python (no connection to the boa snake) and the Latin pythonicus, which Jerome uses to translate ov in the Vulgate (Vayikra 20:27).
GIDEON MAGE wrote: may we please see some documentation of this
Wed, 13-Jul-11 10:29:18
GIDEON MAGE wrote:First you state over and over again that the Mishnah is commentary, then turn around and quote it as absolute truth.
Please provide JUST ONE post in which I have ever stated that the Mishnah is “commentary”. The Mishnah is the “Oral Torah”; it’s the g'mara that is “commentary”.
GIDEON MAGE wrote:if Jerome is an authority on Judiasm now, you might as well believe in the Virgin Birth.
Who said Jerome “is an authority on Judiasm”? I was simply showing that he uses the word פִּיתּוּם pittum (“ventriloquist”) in his Latin translation, too.
Thu, 14-Jul-11 10:11:24
ProfBenTziyyon wrote: GIDEON MAGE wrote: First you state over and over again that the Mishnah is commentary, then turn around and quote it as absolute truth. Please provide JUST ONE post in which I have ever stated that the Mishnah is “commentary”. The Mishnah is the “Oral Torah”; it’s the g'mara that is “commentary”. GIDEON MAGE wrote: if Jerome is an authority on Judiasm now, you might as well believe in the Virgin Birth. Who said Jerome “is an authority on Judiasm”? I was simply showing that he uses the word פִּיתּוּם pittum (“ventriloquist”) in his Latin translation, too.
GIDEON MAGE wrote: First you state over and over again that the Mishnah is commentary, then turn around and quote it as absolute truth.
GIDEON MAGE wrote: if Jerome is an authority on Judiasm now, you might as well believe in the Virgin Birth.
Thu, 14-Jul-11 11:09:55
GIDEON MAGE wrote:Why would Moses pass down a teaching about Samuel?
I have no problem in accepting that the greatest prophet who ever arose in Yisraél (see D'varim 34:10) would have been able to pass down a teaching about Sh'muél but I don’t see how you make the quantum leap from Mosheh to Sh'muél, and I am still waiting for you to back up or withdraw your false claim that “I state over and over again that the Mishnah is commentary”.
Thu, 14-Jul-11 11:24:57
Thu, 14-Jul-11 12:07:55
Sophiee1 wrote:Perhaps he is confusing Mishna with Gemara?
See my post #31.
Thu, 14-Jul-11 15:50:19
Fri, 15-Jul-11 10:06:07
Sat, 16-Jul-11 17:59:38
Proteus wrote:here in the States, one would use a whoopie cushion for that purpose.
That’s exactly the kind of coarse remark I would have expected from a christian; it also shows where you “speak” from if you think one of those cushions makes the sound of a “voice”.
Sun, 17-Jul-11 11:29:24
I am still waiting for “Gideon Mage” to respond to the challenge I posed in post #31 and repeated in post #33. People like him are very fond of making grandiose claims and false accusations, but they go strangely quiet whenever such claims and accusations are challenged.
Mon, 18-Jul-11 10:47:25
ProfBenTziyyon wrote: I am still waiting for “Gideon Mage” to respond to the challenge I posed in post #31 and repeated in post #33. People like him are very fond of making grandiose claims and false accusations, but they go strangely quiet whenever such claims and accusations are challenged.
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