ForgotPassword?
Sign Up
Search this Topic:
Forum Jump
Posts: 5945
Sat, 29-Jun-13 09:09:56
Posts: 4849
Sat, 29-Jun-13 20:26:45
Administrator
Proteus wrote:G-d is the creator and He is not part of creation.If any thing exists that is separate from G-d, then G-d is not infinite.This needs no proof-texts. It's mere reason.
Fri, 5-Jul-13 10:01:43
Posts: 20703
Fri, 5-Jul-13 10:44:14
Moderator
UriYosef wrote:G-d is outside of space-time. Therefore, our idea of "infinity" doesn't apply.
"Behold, it is explicitly stated in the Torah and [the works of] the prophets that the Holy One, blessed be He, is not [confined to] a body or physical form, as [Deuteronomy 4:39] states: "Because G-d, your L-rd, is the L-rd in the heavens above and the earth below," and a body cannot exist in two places [simultaneously]. Also, [Deuteronomy 4:15] states: "For you did not see any image," and [Isaiah 40:25] states: "To whom can you liken Me, with whom I will be equal." Were He [confined to] a body, He would resemble other bodies.(Halacha 8, Yesodei HaTorah the Rambam).
"Behold, it is explicitly stated in the Torah and [the works of] the prophets that the Holy One, blessed be He, is not [confined to] a body or physical form, as [Deuteronomy 4:39] states: "Because G-d, your L-rd, is the L-rd in the heavens above and the earth below," and a body cannot exist in two places [simultaneously].
Also, [Deuteronomy 4:15] states: "For you did not see any image," and [Isaiah 40:25] states: "To whom can you liken Me, with whom I will be equal." Were He [confined to] a body, He would resemble other bodies.(Halacha 8, Yesodei HaTorah the Rambam).
and
[If so,] what did Moses, our teacher, want to comprehend when he requested: "Please show me Your glory" [Exodus 33:18]? He asked to know the truth of the existence of the Holy One, blessed be He, to the extent that it could be internalized within his mind, as one knows a particular person whose face he saw and whose image has been engraved within one's heart. Thus, this person's [identity] is distinguished within one's mind from [that of] other men. Similarly, Moses, our teacher, asked that the existence of the Holy One, blessed be He, be distinguished in his mind from the existence of other entities, to the extent that he would know the truth of His existence as it is [in its own right]. He, blessed be He, replied to him that it is not within the potential of a living man, [a creature of] body and soul, to comprehend this matter in its entirety. [Nevertheless,] He, blessed be He, revealed to [Moses] matters which no other man had known before him - nor would ever know afterward - until he was able to comprehend [enough] from the truth of His existence, for the Holy One, blessed be He, to be distinguished in his mind from other entities, as a person is distinguished from other men when one sees his back and knows the structure of his body and [the manner in which] he is clothed. This is alluded to by the verse [Exodus 33:23]: "You shall see My back, but you shall not see My face." (Halacha 10, Yesodei HaTorah the Rambam)
[If so,] what did Moses, our teacher, want to comprehend when he requested:
"Please show me Your glory" [Exodus 33:18]?
He asked to know the truth of the existence of the Holy One, blessed be He, to the extent that it could be internalized within his mind, as one knows a particular person whose face he saw and whose image has been engraved within one's heart. Thus, this person's [identity] is distinguished within one's mind from [that of] other men. Similarly, Moses, our teacher, asked that the existence of the Holy One, blessed be He, be distinguished in his mind from the existence of other entities, to the extent that he would know the truth of His existence as it is [in its own right].
He, blessed be He, replied to him that it is not within the potential of a living man, [a creature of] body and soul, to comprehend this matter in its entirety. [Nevertheless,] He, blessed be He, revealed to [Moses] matters which no other man had known before him - nor would ever know afterward - until he was able to comprehend [enough] from the truth of His existence, for the Holy One, blessed be He, to be distinguished in his mind from other entities, as a person is distinguished from other men when one sees his back and knows the structure of his body and [the manner in which] he is clothed.
This is alluded to by the verse [Exodus 33:23]:
"You shall see My back, but you shall not see My face." (Halacha 10, Yesodei HaTorah the Rambam)
Fri, 5-Jul-13 10:46:36
Since it has been clarified that He does not have a body or corporeal form, it is also clear that none of the functions of the body are appropriate to Him: neither connection nor separation, neither place nor measure, neither ascent nor descent, neither right nor left, neither front nor back, neither standing nor sitting. He is not found within time, so that He would possess a beginning, an end, or age. He does not change, for there is nothing that can cause Him to change. [The concept of] death is not applicable to Him, nor is [that of] life within the context of physical life. [The concept of] foolishness is not applicable to Him, nor is [that of] wisdom in terms of human wisdom. Neither sleep nor waking, neither anger nor laughter, neither joy nor sadness, neither silence nor speech in the human understanding of speech [are appropriate terms with which to describe Him]. Our Sages declared: "Above, there is no sitting or standing, separation or connection."
Since it has been clarified that He does not have a body or corporeal form, it is also clear that none of the functions of the body are appropriate to Him: neither connection nor separation, neither place nor measure, neither ascent nor descent, neither right nor left, neither front nor back, neither standing nor sitting.
He is not found within time, so that He would possess a beginning, an end, or age. He does not change, for there is nothing that can cause Him to change.
[The concept of] death is not applicable to Him, nor is [that of] life within the context of physical life. [The concept of] foolishness is not applicable to Him, nor is [that of] wisdom in terms of human wisdom.
Neither sleep nor waking, neither anger nor laughter, neither joy nor sadness, neither silence nor speech in the human understanding of speech [are appropriate terms with which to describe Him]. Our Sages declared:
"Above, there is no sitting or standing, separation or connection."
Fri, 5-Jul-13 16:49:35
Proteus wrote:I'm not trying to be difficult; it may be I haven't understood that statement.Let me start over.Is God not All?(Related: Reply #48 on the "God does not change" thread.)
Sat, 6-Jul-13 09:41:52
Sat, 6-Jul-13 20:54:07
He (G-d is not found within time, so that He would possess a beginning, an end, or age. He does not change, for there is nothing that can cause Him to change.
Sat, 6-Jul-13 21:49:09
Proteus wrote:I believe it's the other way 'round: the Creation must be part of the Creator.The Creator is infinitely greater than the Creation.
Posts: 2285
Sun, 7-Jul-13 10:15:03
Sun, 7-Jul-13 10:33:42
Sun, 7-Jul-13 10:58:13
Mon, 8-Jul-13 09:30:34
Mon, 8-Jul-13 10:45:07
Proteus wrote:The position I've espoused is called "panentheism," and from numerous Wikipedia articles I gather that it is controversial within Judaism.
Mon, 8-Jul-13 10:50:11
Mon, 8-Jul-13 14:44:15
Proteus wrote:I haven't examined the Scriptures at those levels. It's solely a question of how the world appears to me.
In the early 19th century the term "panentheism" was coined to distinguish such a view from pure pantheism. There is no doubt that the term could apply to a number of well-known kabbalists, who were able to argue – with some measure of justice – that a similar position is already implied in the statement in the Midrash (Gen. R. 68) that "The Holy One blessed be He is the place of the world but the world is not His place." The panentheist view offered a clear compromise between pure theism and pure pantheism and left room for a personalistic depiction of the Godhead.
Tue, 9-Jul-13 09:43:10
Posts: 346
Mon, 19-Aug-13 23:18:55
Tue, 20-Aug-13 05:36:16
Hebrew wander wrote:@Uri Besides pslams 74:9 what other arguments could a person use against the idea of John the Baptist being a prophet?
There are four nuances of navua (prophecy) that give us a composite picture of what prophecy means in the Torah. 1] Navi is related to niv, which indicates speech as in the verse, ?He created the fruit (niv) of the lips? (Is. 57:19). In this context, a navi is a spokesman. 2] Another nuance of navua is from bo, meaning come. This expresses the idea that the navi enables the word of G-d to come forth. 3] It is also related to nava, which means flow. Here Divine influence flows forth from the prophet as from a spring or fountain. 4] Last, navi is connected to navuv, meaning hollow. This implies the process of emptying oneself of ego, becoming channel or conduit for Divine inspiration. (the article explains divine inspiration)Accordingly, Avraham and Aaron are each referred to as navi because they spoke of, brought forth, caused to flow and channeled Divine energy to achieve a goal. In Avraham?s case it brought forth a cure; regarding Aaron, it refers to his initiating the first of the plagues. Prophesizing the future, then, is only one limited manifestation or expression of navua.
Tue, 20-Aug-13 12:06:50
Share This