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Posts: 2285
Thu, 29-Aug-13 11:31:24
Moderator
Proteus wrote:
Posts: 970
Thu, 29-Aug-13 11:43:40
mark wrote: When we start getting into all these discussions about the supernatural, it's very interesting to watch people cross that line into the realm of the double-standard, in terms of establishing "proof" of various claims. I'm sure it applies equally to people of all faiths. But it's actually stunning to see how far people will take it, and not realize they're doing it. Let's be clear: we are all in the same boat. So-called "scholars" and atheists around the world find the entirety of Hebrew and Christian scripture to be utterly implausible, period.
Posts: 1232
Thu, 29-Aug-13 12:24:19
Ezekah wrote -The way I see it is that Christians seem to seek out miracles that they then use to confirm their faith. It's weak to me, as these people need a steady diet of miracles to keep their faith going.
Thu, 29-Aug-13 13:13:33
Posts: 1781
Thu, 29-Aug-13 20:36:55
Zvi wrote:So, really the appeal to miracles is irrelevant. What is relevant is the revelation at Sinai, where God spoke to the ENTIRE nation. The ENTIRE nation experienced prophecy and they did not need to rely on the individual experience of others.
Fri, 30-Aug-13 01:04:07
Fri, 30-Aug-13 01:37:34
Fri, 30-Aug-13 08:03:23
Fri, 30-Aug-13 09:41:55
Fri, 30-Aug-13 12:58:25
Fri, 30-Aug-13 12:58:41
"how can (Michael Brown) continue to pitch the same woo when he has to realize that he is wrong in so many areas?"
Zvi wrote:I didn't say that we have 100% empirically verifiable proof... I said that we have a historical basis for our ancestors acceptance of Torah.
Fri, 30-Aug-13 13:08:50
Posts: 20703
Fri, 30-Aug-13 13:16:04
mark wrote:You can quote any scripture you like, until you're blue in the face. But it takes an act of God to change a person's heart.
In Deuteronomy 13:1-2 the Bible raises the question of what to do when a "prophet" offers to show a miracle in order to lend credibility to his message. How are we to respond if, in fact, the promised miracle comes to pass just as he predicted? Should we then follow this "prophet" even if he encourages us to worship other gods which are unknown to our people? "You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer," the Torah emphatically declares. G-d did not send him. The obvious question is: Why would the Almighty permit religions and prophets who teach unsavory doctrines to produce spiritual transformations and miraculous events? The answer lies in the verses that follow.The L-rd your G-d is testing you to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the L-rd your G-d you must follow, and Him you must revere. Keep His commands and obey Him; serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Deuteronomy 13:3-4)
The L-rd your G-d is testing you to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the L-rd your G-d you must follow, and Him you must revere. Keep His commands and obey Him; serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Deuteronomy 13:3-4)
Perhaps there is among you a man, woman, family, or tribe, whose heart strays this day from HaShem, our G-d, to go and worship the deities of those nations. Perhaps there is among you a root that produces hemlock and wormwood. 18. And it will be, when he [such a person] hears the words of this oath, that he will bless himself in his heart, saying, "I will have peace, even if I follow my heart's desires,". . . Deuteronomy 29:17
Perhaps there is among you a man, woman, family, or tribe, whose heart strays this day from HaShem, our G-d, to go and worship the deities of those nations. Perhaps there is among you a root that produces hemlock and wormwood.
18. And it will be, when he [such a person] hears the words of this oath, that he will bless himself in his heart, saying, "I will have peace, even if I follow my heart's desires,". . . Deuteronomy 29:17
19. HaShem will not be willing to forgive him; rather, then, HaShem's fury and His zeal will fume against that man, and the entire curse written in this book will rest upon him, and HaShem will obliterate his name from beneath the heavens. 20. And HaShem will separate him for evil
19. HaShem will not be willing to forgive him; rather, then, HaShem's fury and His zeal will fume against that man, and the entire curse written in this book will rest upon him, and HaShem will obliterate his name from beneath the heavens.
Fri, 30-Aug-13 13:23:50
mark wrote:Sophiee asked :"how can (Michael Brown) continue to pitch the same woo when he has to realize that he is wrong in so many areas?"Disregarding the inherent chutzpah of presuming that he "realizes that he is wrong",
"quoted the NIV’s translation of the verses, the version I generally used throughout the book. So, this is not a misquotation but simply the use of a standard translation."
Posts: 4849
Fri, 30-Aug-13 13:50:17
Administrator
Sophiee1 wrote:Brown referenced "Ibn Crispin" as a great rabbinical source in one of his books. On this very forum Brown admitted that he was wrong and stated he was going to make sure he changed his book to reflect this in the next edition.
Fri, 30-Aug-13 14:17:26
Mark wrote:"You may say that the supernatural experiences of Christians are irrelevant, but it's just possible that no amount of "convincing" can undo what has taken place in his life. You can quote any scripture you like, until you're blue in the face. But it takes an act of God to change a person's heart."SMR response -We are saying the supernatural experiences of any belief does not prove theirs to be the correct one. So no one can change their heart? Then why does G-d say we can? Why does G-d ask us to turn away from our sins and return to HIM if we can't do it by ourselves? Why doesn't the Hebrew bible just come out and say - "you cannot possibly do it yourself only Hashem can do it for you"?Mark wrote - "By the way, regarding the "everyday miracles" that keep coming up in this thread... I'll point out again that people of all faiths lay claim to those same miracles, and give credit to their deity. They prove nothing to unbelievers. SMR response - So Mark, what is the difference between an everyday miracle and any other miracle? A miracle is a miracle, no?And I'll go out again as well and say that "people of all faiths lay claim to those same "supernatural experiences", and give credit to their deity."That's why miracles do not define a religion and that is why Hashem gave reference to it.So Mark, you can believe Hashem's word that he gave to us in His Torah, or you can believe yourself. Mark wrote - "But we can be grateful for a merciful God, Who causes the rain to fall on everyone, regardless of their religion."SMR response -Yes we can!
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