I originally posted the following (3/14/05 11:11 pm) on a thread called Jesus, Kleenex & Wheaties where poop happened to be a prominent image. The post is pertinent on the present thread as partial answer to Morriss question of whether the Cross did, in fact, involve the sacrifice of a human being. Christianity answers that it most emphatically did; this text indicates some of whats at stake in that humanity. I can now provide links I couldnt the first time, to the two literary works the essay mentions:

Robert Browning, "Caliban upon Setebos"

Jurgen Moltmann, The Crucified God



PNINAH (3/10/05 2:49 pm):
when the try to wrap G-d in mere human flesh they give this god every human bodily function that we have. i have also asked these questions before but they were avoided and i was called "disrespectful" to G-d. however, they are not disrespectful by giving G-d these functions?? can you even imagine the awesome G-d of israel sucking on two breasts for nutrition?? can you even imagine the awesome G-d of israel having nocturnal emissions of semen as human men do?? what is that all about?????? and to even think of the awesome G-d of israel being caught with his pants down or robe up as he has a bowel movement or urinates is about as ridiculous as one can get.

HARRY:
Pninah, I have not found the post referenced in green. Whoever said that would likely not have been me.

Luther believed that (in contrast to mine), Jesus poop definitely did stink. In his experience as a father changing diapers, he found a profound -- if malodorous -- analogy to what The Father must experience in the work of redemption. There is a certain humiliation to it. There is a definite condescension. The enormity of that condescension is what Pninah rejects. The alternative would have been for God to tell humanity to change its own diapers, whereas it is helpless to wallow in its own feces (that is, sin).

In The Crucified God, his book to which I keep referring, Jurgen Moltmann begins by discussing the the scandal of the Cross as a (purported) truth humanity always seeks to avoid, Christians no less than anyone else. In his book (literally), this avoidance is ultimately what brought on HaShoah.

I seldom speak of the scandal of the Cross because, from born-again mouths in the presence of Jews, its usually a cheap shot. At this moment, on this thread, however, its not. Its exactly on-topic.

The following discussion presumes, arguendo, a Fall. Whether or not a Fall happened, and whether or not I believe one did, it is the presumption of the doctrines, that it did. From that presumption, the following devolves.

COMPETENCE TO SAVE

What is your god like? Lets try it this way: Here I am, a mechanic. Here comes some guy whos never driven a car, never put his head under the hood, never turned a wrench, skinned a knuckle, or got grease under his fingernails; and hes gonna tell me how to replace my brakes? I dont think so.

What is your god like? Lets try it this way: Here I am, incarnate. Here comes some god whos never experienced hunger, thirst, burning sun, freezing cold, lust, pain, disappointment, frustration or nausea; and hes gonna tell me how to live? I dont think so. Hes never been there; hes clueless to what I deal with; he doesnt know; hes not competent to pontificate. He certainly isnt competent to save.

What is your god like? Every well-off person has his or her prescription for the poor. Charles says, Let em starve; Don says, Give em money. Meanwhile, theyve never been there, nor do they ever mean to; they dont know what it is, they dont know what goes on, they wont lift a finger themselves to solve the problems -- but, best of all, theyll never have to shake an unwashed hand.

You want to see human waste? Ill show you human waste -- at least as the Pharisees saw it: those to whom Jesus, in his earthly life, ministered. What saith your god to the out-of-wedlock child? the unwanted child? the child produced from incest? that childs parents? the junkie who, at this moment, may be dying in the gutter in the alley behind my house?

An oh-so-holy, awesome god, whos never soiled himself or faced eviction, has no credibility to speak to the poor. He sure cannot save them. In fact, hed probably do best to just never come into my neighborhood at all.

POWER TO SAVE -- WHOM? FROM WHAT?

The enormity of Gods condescension in becoming incarnate, on the one hand, is matched only by the enormity of what that work accomplished, on the other.

We Christians take a lot of flack around here for the human sacrifice of Gods own son. Our critics usually ignore the fact that it was one (1) and only one (1) incident of such sacrifice, and it would have been futile had the person not been a god-man. Our critics also completely ignore what this sacrifice supposedly accomplished -- not only the forgiveness of all sin, of all human beings for all time, but also the healing of all woundedness, of all human beings for all time. Neither one of those presents a pretty picture -- no, not neat and tidy.

Joe has been particularly harsh, on behalf of a man he claims never lived:
(I couldn't find the post! But he really let my
God "have it" for being mean to his own son.)
What do you think was at stake? Were talking about what was necessary to equip this individual to redeem all human wrongdoing for all time. Were not talking about a Sunday school picnic.

Has no one here seen Saving Private Ryan or Henry IV?

Where is your God when people face the kind of circumstances that result from a siege (as described in Deuteronomy 28:52-57; 2 Kings 6:24-31; 2 Kings 18:27)? My God is right there, with them, and can be only by virtue of the incarnation.

The Shoa was not neat, clean and tidy. What sort of god could have been there -- without ever having been there? Never incarnate? Your gods never been there. Mine has.



If you insist that my God is not your God, then you may be right.

The awesome G-d of israel aint never done a single thing for me. Absent the GT witness, to goyim he aint all that much different from Setebos, the god of the miscreant Caliban in Shakespeares The Tempest, as set forth in Brownings poem. Creates beings for no apparent reason but to torment them. (The author of evil, remember?)

My God has paid his dues. Yours has not.
My God has earned the right to my worship. Yours has not.
My God has done the necessary. Yours has not.

PNINAH:
G-d should slap the crap out of them just for attributing these human functions to him if not for anything else!!!!

HARRY:
We been doin this for nearly 2,000 years, and he aint smacked nothin out of us yet. It would appear that he's not insulted. What a mensch!



Actually, tonight this seems to me to completely answer Morriss question about human sacrifice.