Restoring now what had been index no. 41 on the original Obstacles to Belief thread. I am restoring it HERE as it continues certain themes begun in Diaper Change. I have removed footnote references that pointed to posts that, at this moment, dont exist.



Harry
Registered User
(2/26/05 8:39 pm)
Reply Re: Isaac and Jesus
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We Christians stand accused of worshipping Molech.

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HARRY (2/24/05 7:38 pm):
The Bible (TaNaKh and GT alike) evidences pervasive, anxious ambivalence about this; as witness the conflicts between [1] Cain and Abel, [2] Isaac and Ishmael, [3] Jacob and Esau; [4] the binding of Isaac; [5] the tenth plague against Pharaoh; [6] the consecration of the firstborn (Exodus 13:11-16); even [7] Lukes parable of the Prodigal Son and [8] Jesus own role as firstborn.
PNINAH1 (2/24/05 8:48 pm):
*** sounds much like xianity that consists of one idea. have your "firstborn" flogged, whipped, punched, dragged through streets and then executed on a cross as a sacrifice to G-d and from then on G-d will protect you no matter what you do has long as you believe in this human sacrifice to G-d as payment for sin. you name it you are scott free as long as you are a "believer" in the human sacrifice. (xianity 101)
SHALHEVET (2/25/05 7:43 am):
Looks to me like they run paralel. What they did for Molech, is exactly what they claim G_d did to j-sus. So looks like their god is actually Molech.

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First, lets take out the garbage.

My original post cited eight (8-) parallels. Why do Pninah and Shal ignore seven (7) of them?

The green word in my quote from Pninah is important. As in contrast for example with Psalm 4:8, Christianity does not teach that God protects Christians from anything. See also Matthew 5:45.

We have a problem with pronouns in Shals post. Whos the they in each case? Are the implied equations factual, or has a twist happened here?

A twist has indisputably occurred in Pninahs handling of my post. (This is the sort of thing Gretta called chaos.) The intention and purpose of the post was to JUSTIFY Gods extermination of those peoples; per my conclusion, If God allowed THAT to survive, what he destroyed must have been WORSE. JC and others have needed to hear me say clearly that sin DOES occur; all frameworks ARE NOT created equal; if there are many paths TO God, there are also many paths AWAY FROM God. This is what that post does. It had no gist of justifying Christianity, and so cannot rightly be made to discredit same.

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Now, to deal with what matters:

On the one hand, Shal, Pninah, youre going to have a real hard time proving that the historical Jesus himself pronounced any such doctrine. If you have followed my exchanges with [name redacted] at all, you should know by now that, IMO, it aint there.

My discussion of Molech began with these words: Heres a real simple faith for you: a religion that consists of one (1) idea. Just as [name redacted] has insisted that theres much more to [Judaism] than observance, there is also much more to Christianity than the doctrine Pninah and Shal purport. In fact, the Christian much more and the Jewish much more seem, per many recent posts on this board, to have much in common: for starters, they recognize the same needs for prayer, repentance, forgiveness, atonement.

Likewise, per my assertion that what I call presence is what the historical Jesus teachings boil down to; as witness my agreement with Sophiees admonition to Douggg to focus on here-and-now rather than eschatology; -- aint no scott free. Aint no hereafter -- not that the historical Jesus thought mattered. Shuv, forgiveness, atonement are things we need to do EVERY DAY, HERE AND NOW. Jesus mission was to teach the lost sheep that these things are possible.{1}

Pertinent also to the just-said, and to what things are required to establish and maintain "presence": Someone here asked me what I thought of the crucifix and I did not answer. I answer now.

It took me many years to come to understand the crucifix, what it stands for. It tells me now that sacrifice and suffering are inevitable in life; that just as God and His son went through what they did at the Cross, so also I must and by Gods grace CAN -- do likewise, day by day, in my own circumstances. Repentance and forgiveness inevitably entail EMOTIONAL sacrifices, of my potential hatred of an offender, other untoward emotions; tearing out of my being, in order to burn on the altar, dreams that events have shattered, hopes that can never come to be. Taking out the garbage, in a sense -- but what is garbage today, was yesterday my noblest aspiration.

Examples of shattered dreams, of my own or of my community:
- The aspiration that Amazing Grace could someday be, again, a nice, white church
- My workacholic father's ambition to leave us a substantial estate. He slaved for years, and at the end of his career, took one imprudent risk, got screwed by a business partner, and as it happens they BOTH lost everything.
- My original vocation, hoping to retire as a classroom English teacher in the inner-city public schools. It didnt work out. I have a lot of material yet to trash, and its hard because I come across stuff showing I had some of the most MIND-BLOWING ideas for techniques and things to try, that never got carried out and never will.
- My hope, my sense of call, for a new career to serve God as a Lutheran pastor
- The dream some of us had, of a neighborhood food co-op that would substantially alleviate hunger in this area. (A number of folks had done a lot of work on this, when a community leader torpedoed it just before launch.)

The crucifix tells me that HaShem has been there, no matter where I may go. Accordingly, HaShem can relate to me, my suffering and weakness, no matter what. Even in the most dire material circumstances, HaShem does not turn away from me.

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{1}The Healthy Dont Need a Doctor, p069.ezboard.com/fmessiah...c&index=14