[personal attacks deleted]

Chaim, you raised a very good point in the later part of the verse in Daniel. Until war is finished, Desolation has remained on the Temple Mount. The GREATEST proof that Jman was NOT the Messiah is that the Temple has not been rebuilt, universal peace has not been manifest (I certainly have not seen this in my lifetime, have you?) and the universality of the ONE true G-d. If anything this PROVES that Jman was not the Messiah.. never mind the obvious character flaws which would automatically annul his supposed contention. If we extend a modicum of consideration for him with this "second coming" nonsense, then EVERY Jewish wanna-be Messiah from Judah the Zealot in 4 CE to the Rebbe (of blessed memory) MUST also be afforded the SAME consideration. If I subscribed to such a flight of fantasy, I'd put my money on Bar Kochba rather than some obscure traveling preacher from Galilee.. at least Bar Kochba was actually starting to tick off some of the things the Messiah is supposed to do. (bar kochba 8 Jman 0). But anyway, I digress...

First off let's address things in chronological order.. Douggy boy made the contention that it should have taken the Jews 49 years to complete the building of Jerusalem (with what???? Haliburton contracts? I didn't know they were in place in ancient Iraq maybe the Jews should have contracted with them upon leaving Babylon)

The Return from Babylon to Jerusalem started in THREE phases; coupled together it DID take close to 125 years from the time the decree was issued to return to Israel by Cyrus (538 bce) until Ezra's return to Israel and the completion of the walls of Jerusalem by Nehemiah (430 bce). The Temple's repair was started in 536 BCE (two years AFTER the Cyrus decree-- supplies had to be gathered as well as funds and logistics) by Zerubbabel, appointed governor to the region with Joshua, the Kohen HaGadol.

Work was stopped on the Temple because of mounting resistance from the Samaritans who opposed such work on the Temple. In addition, internal problems within the medo-persia empire put the work on the Jewish temple on hold for well over 14 years. According to Ezra's account, the Samaritans sent slanderous word back to the King of Persia...(King Darius) that the Jews were going to use the rebuilding of the Temple as a national campaign to revolt against the king (the same charge that would later circulate among the empire during Queen Esther's time). As a result, the King of Persia sent an order to the Jews to stop work on the Temple. However, since the priests had been anointed, the Altar reinstituted and the daily offerings commenced, the SERVICES of the Temple continued, if not the actual construction of the Temple building itself. So for 14 years the Temple reconstruction lay in a state of suspension. During this time, the Jews were in perilous danger or as DANIEL stated "in troubled times". .. the Samaritans were directly north of Jerusalem and the Phonecians and other nations were directly west. The total size of Judea was only 20 miles wide and 30 miles long. And according to both Ezra, Nehemiah and some accounts in Haggai, the Jews endured threats and attacks from their enemies. NOT EVERYONE was glad that the Jews were returning.

The second wave of immigration to Judea (remember, the samaritans are in the north of Jerusalem and the Phonecians are directly to the west of Judea) came in about 520 BCE, 14 years later. The Prophets Haggai and Zechariah blasted the Jewish people for becoming lax in their commitment to the Temple and to the Covenant; even in the face of such opposition.. it was Zechariah would come and admonish Zerubbable the governor of the region that in the seemingly impossible conditions, the L-rd will assist in the rebuilding of not only the Temple but also of Jerusalem (the fameous, "not by might nor by power" prophesy). Bouyed by this, not only was the Temple completed, but people started to return spiritually to rites of the offerings, tithes and gifts. It truly was a "re awakening"., The work on the Temple resumed in 520 BCE and was completed in 516 BCE. However, the city itself lay completely vunerable to attack and it wasn't long before the situation in Judea and later Jerusalem and the Temple itself was in jeapordy.


In 478 BCE, a beautiful exile wins a contest that would catipalt her from obscurity to being the first Jewish Queen in a foreign land.. that girl turned "redeemer" was Esther. In five years she would move from being a concubine to being a queen and in doing so, as we know the story, foiled a plot that would call for the mass extermination of all Jews within the empire, including, (let's not forget) Judea in the far reaches. Once the plan is foiled and once the decree is sent that not one Jew would be killed, Purim is celebrated in 473 CE.

In 458 CE, almost 20 years later, Ezra is among the third wave of exiles to trek back to Judea. Incidentally, not all the exiles in Babylon left. By the time of the third wave, many Jewish communities were already part and parcel of the diverse culture that was now part of the Persian empire to be later absorbed by the Greeks. Were it not for this community (and the one created in Alexandria Egypt) the Jews upon the destruction of Jerusalem in both 70 CE and later 165 CE would have had no community to absorb them. Nor in my opinion, would Judaism so completely out manuevered the church in its tyrannical upstart campaign.

Ezra returns and he was shocked at his findings in the Homeland His book tells of the dire conditions of the Jews and their "exilic" state from Judaism. He pretty much sanctions that the people start behaving as observant Jews; divorcing not only the foreign wives from Babylon but also from the wives taken from among their neighbors: the Samaritans and the Phonecians. However it's a long seven years before the city of Jerusalem is in any condition to withstand any attack from their growing number of eneimies.

In 430 BCE Nehemiah returns to Jerusalem with the third wave of exiles and once they start working on the walls of Jerusalem (the city was not that large), they finished fortifying the walls within 52 DAYS. This was due in part to not only the amount of the workforce but also the spiritual resurgencies that Ezra and Nehimiah imbued upon the people. It is Ezra who initiates the Jewish Returnees (both first and second generations) in reaffirming the Covenant (much like Moses did with the first and second generation--- remember, only the first generation of warriors was decreed the death penalty-- in the book of deuteronomy). I believe it is HERE that the Second Covenant was established. For at this time, the Torah was read publically and some semblance of order was enacted so that Jews would be able to read the entire Torah within a year. It was also here that the Great Assembly was established and Jewish education would flourish well into the next phase of Jewish history.

While the Temple was being cleansed and consecrated, the Walls of Jerusalem being rebuilt and fortified, the people realizing their heritage and their responsibility to Torah, it is the Prophet Malachi who appears on the scene.

Malachi (435 to 415 BCE?) is the one who not only admonishes and charges the people of, well, being cheap and forgetting the Temple, but also charges the Priests with not yet living up to their potential. Malachi is an encourager and soon (as Ezra's books would bear out) the people do come back to the Torah. It is at this place that Malachi promises that Elijah will be sent to herald not only peace for Jews but the Day of the L-rd; wherein the Jews will be spared (remember the prophesies of Zechariah?) and all the nations would be punished. So the prophesies given to Daniel concerning the FIRST section from exile to return to restoration have been fulfilled. Israel is poised to either bring the Messiah or bring yet another conquerer. And sure enough, the Hellenization of Judea brings another Prince (Alexander the Great) into the region but his time is cut short by malyria and his empire carved up. In to this turmoil comes Emperors who desecrate the Sanctuary, but the Temple is not destroyed.. that will come with Rome.

So technically, from the time of Cyrus' decree to REBUILD THE TEMPLE to Nehemiah's completion of the walls of Jerusalem and to the Jewish people's rebirth was 125 years! Now, we can see via history (and I got most of this history from both a Jewish bible and the Xtians' own Inductive Study Bible NIV) that it took the Jews about 125 years to rebuild; 14 years of which were added to the time it took due to King Darius' order to stop building! Also as we've seen the Jews encountered resistance every year along the way to return and rebuilding. Frankly, Dougg needs to read the book he professes to know so much about!


And so we're left with the prince who will be "cut off". If xtians want to purport that Jman was the one "cut off", then they, as Sophiee has explained so well that even a forming child in the womb could understand, the 'cut off" terminology clearly is in direct relation to the same "cutting off" mentioned in the Torah. That is if anyone who commits an abomination in the "eyes" of G-d, that person is cut off.. he is to be spiritually (and in some cases physically) considered by the Jewish people as being dead/cursed. Even though the text in Daniel alludes that it will be an anointed (by the Priests and ratified by the people) official, what this person does is so offensive Israel deems him "cut off". So much for it being jman.. unless you believe as I do that he was evil and was cut off (the Sanhedrin in 90 CE had no other choice but to "cut off" the Nazarene movement as subversive to Judaism; threatening the survival of the Jewish people after having survived the massacre at Jerusalem in the Romans' razing of the Temple.)

As for anointing. In terms of a JEWISH RULER, G-d could most certainly "anoint" someone that's true, but that's NOT how G-d set up the JEWISH system. This official was to RULE over the Jewish people. As such, that person was taken to the kidron brook and anointed with oil by the HIGH PRIEST and/or the Prophet (as in the case of King Saul and later King David), and was ratified by the people. There was no "secret ballot" in anointing, it was done in public and done according to the ritual that was outlined in the Torah. Even though G-d appointed Aaron and his sons to be His priests, NEVERTHELESS, they were anointed with oil in view of the WHOLE entire nation of Israel. It should be noted that this was AT G-D'S COMMAND. xitans misinterpret the "anointing" from a physical ratification of office to some spiritual mumbo jumbo denoting spritual qualifications. Since Israel was/is a PHYSICAL nation with a PHYSICAL LITERAL injunction to morality and righteousness, once her judges and priests and leaders were first selected because of qualifications (outlined in Exodus and again in Deuteronomy 1) they were later then anointed with oil in a PHYSICAL and visual ceremony which would ratify that decision. The people have to be present. Historically, Jman was NOT anointed by the High Priest (and John does NOT count as he abandoned his post in Jerusalem to become an Essene) nor was he ratifified as any kind of leader by the Jewish people. Any twist of interepretation that he was is simply the fabrication of the xtian GT to try to subvert the process and make Jman the "model" that fits anywhere.

However, there is no indication in the Daniel Text that this person has to be Jewish, although if you read the text wrong, you could link the armies of the prince to the annointed that would be cut off (done by the Jewish people). My view of this is that this person who is described as 'AN ANOINTED" not "THE" annointed, is none other than the last of the Hasmonean rulers. It was through their bickering and their brokering that Rome was called into the region. I also believe, like Sophiee (I think) it was Yannai who is this person because Josephus describes him as a bloody ruler who subverted the Jewish people and ordered the execution of many members of the Sanhedrin in a case of "you don't agree with me, I'll kill you" scenario, even further alienating Jews. With this already festering in the Jewish Nation, the brothers Aristobolus and Hyrcannus challenge each other for the throne. Yes a prince ruled in Jerusalem for about 20 years after Pompey entered Jerusalem in 65 BCE. But then Rome directly ruled Jerusalem and within 200 years, Israel and Jerusalem would be destroyed and for 2000 years the Temple Mount would lay in desolation. The people of A prince is Rome, in my opinion. The Messiah has YET to come.

So this whole hyperbole concerning a book that was upon the angel's command to be "sealed up" until the end of days really has people grasping at straws in order to fit the Jman into the mold. Never letting any form of contention go, the xtians are STILL intent of making the 'cut off" abomination Jman. If they want to do that, let them.. but don't try to change what that entails based upon the timeline. Also as mentioned before, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.. man has NOT gotten better with the arrival of this false Messiah aka Jeshu.. in the course of 2000 years, 20 MILLION Jews have been butchered, burned, baked, slaughtered, hacked, bludgeoned, drowned, gassed and even blown to pieces in acts of violence. This alone is proof that jman could not possibly be the JEWISH Messiah.. What messiah allows his own people to be exterminated en mass IN HIS NAME???????

The truth is we are still waiting and then as now, the Jews' survival lies in THEIR hands and is NOT subject to an arm chair wanna be prophet's ranting and ravings that such actions taken by the Jewish People are part and pawns of a Divine Xtian end game!

Maybe until Dougg takes a new stance or a new attitude, we all should just forget responding to his twist and shout methodology of interpretating prophets and Texts; as he obviously has no comprehension nor respect to the Jewish people to whom the books were given and from whom he would still be in his ignorance were it not for the Jews.. oh wait.. he still is with the parameters of willful ignorance.

tune in next time...

Arik


P.S. as always, sophiee.. YOU GO GIRL!!!!!
:rollin :rolleyes