(My 6:36 pm post has not yet been released.)

As things have developed on this thread,
I am coming closer and closer to what I would argue on the thread I promised to,
but have not yet, launched, concerning the concept of a hidden God vs. that of a revealed God. The latter god-concept leads towards works righteousness; the former, toward grace.

I am not seeking on this thread to make any contrast between Judaism and Christianity. I have sought time and again to have folks leave Christianity completely out of the picture. On the context of this board, sure, some anticipate with baited breath that sooner or later Ill lower the boom and say, ACHTUNG !!! YOOOOO NEED JESUS !!! Aint gone happen. Never have done it before on this board, and have no reason to start now.

I am surprised to be encountering arguments from which one could infer that nobody needs God.

There are, it seems to me, two independent issues
about which I disagree with most participants on this board.
First is the hidden god vs. revealed god thing.
Most folks here subscribe to the revealed god-concept,
with its by-your-bootstraps approach to salvation (whatever that means).
Second is the question of knowledge vs. belief,
with most folks here insisting that they know this, that and the other,
and that accordingly emotions play no role.

Neither axis is a Christian-Jewish thing. All four possible combinations
(hidden/knowledge, hidden/belief, revealed/knowledge, revealed/belief)
exist within both camps. Robert Jenson would be a typical hidden-knowledge person. Pat Robertson (mentioned in my first post on the White Meat thread) is
a revealed-knowledge person, as are most folks here.

I am seeking to explore the possibility of a grace-based Judaism. Actually, some approximation of it seems to be already in place for most Jews of my personal acquaintance. If it werent, theyd say the kinds of things I hear here. They dont.

Nor do they find Christianity any kind of threat.

How come?

Methinks, cause a grace-based worldview works. Revealed-god cosmology, in contrast, does not.

It appears to me that revealed-god cosmology is part and parcel of that Christianity which most ex-Christians here left.
Good move. Unfortunately, it seems to me, most of them
exchanged that dysfunctional revealed-god Christianity
for an equally dysfunctional revealed-god Judaism or Noachism.
Only, only, only for that reason do they find Christianity a threat.

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It seems to me Gods words to Cain in Genesis 4:7 pertain to a single individual, a single situation, and werent meant to express cosmic principles affecting all humanity forever. Sure, we sometimes have the capability to choose between right and wrong. Thats not my issue.

As to the rest of CKs post, the supposed differences between Judaism and Christianity for the most part dont exist.

I do believe we have the will/ability to save ourselves from sin--at least much of the time. If we didn't, teshuvah would be kind of pointless, wouldn't it? Being powerless over sin=being powerless over repentance, what's the difference? If you're talking about addictions, that's in a whole other category, but I don't think you are.

Well, I havent explicitly talked about addictions, but boy, do they ever tend to prove my point. More on that shortly, maybe. A crucial detail: once I began studying the dynamics of dependency, I saw real fast that its an issue the Christian Bible (which includes TaNaKh) doesnt deal with anywhere. Except maybe for one verse in Proverbs. I suspect the historical Jesus dealt personally with addicts every day, but the Twelve were not among them; nor were those by and for whom the Christian Scriptures got written. A good deal, a surprising amount, of the pertinent original material survives, but most has been lost. Not personally wrestling with those issues, the writers didnt get it, and so left it out.

As with Cain, one often does have opportunity to choose between right and wrong. (Note: the active addict doesnt experience it that way!) I say every incident of shuv involves divine intervention. A human being can get herself or himself in a place where shuv might occur, and then choose either to accept or to reject the divine impulse to repent or to forgive. But it is God alone who performs the healing. As has been said, God is the only savior.

Spooky questions become available about how the human being obtains even the desire to get himself or herself into such a place; of the nature of the will, its conscious or subconscious operation, and of where the borderline may be between self and God. Im not sure we can pursue those now.

For Judaism, it's the covenant, being co-creators with Hashem. Tikkun Olam--and my own belief is that the salvation of this planet rests on us (humans, that is, not just Jews), G-d isn't going to clean up the messes we make. ... I do pray that we will get it together enough that we do have a messianic age ...

Any number of Christians would say no other. This co-creators thing is a potential stumbling block, per Psalm 82:6-7. But youre likely to find sympathetic treatment of it in the works of any of these people:

- Walter Brueggeman
- Robert McAfee Brown
- Denise Hopkins
- Elaine Pagels
- Burton Throckmorton
- Phyllis Trible.

Of course, my own view is that HaOlam HaBa is here and now.
This life is the next.
People generally live in whatever heaven or hell they have created
for themselves and their community.

On the one hand, I anticipate no messianic age, of any sort, ever. I do find intriguing the scenario put forth by William Stringfellow, that the Kingdom comes here and there, now and then, in those times and places (always temporary) where a community treats all its members in a liberating fashion. Recalls the word that is the focus of this thread.

On the other hand, if someone wants to accuse Christians of universal passive irresponsibility, correctives are available there, too. A tremendously popular essay in some circles, available here
www.eonline.com/Gossip/Morton/Archive/2003/031220c.html
recalls the concluding words of John F. Kennedys inaugural address,
... [H]ere on earth, God's work must surely be our own.

There is also the popular story of the statue of Jesus, absent hands; to which the inscription got attached, I have no hands but yours.
http://www.artcontent.de/skulptur/97/huang/k_e.htm
http://www.kalokagathos.com/
http://www.ipj-ppj.org/I%20have%20no%20hands%20but%20yours.htm

The 19th-century American adventist movement took this can do attitude to extremes, participating fully in all those social reforms Christians today get so despised for, building hospitals and orphanages in the anticipation that
(Does this next line sound at all familiar?)
Once, if we only get it right, then Messiah will come.

[Jews are] G-d wrestlers

And Christians arent? Ive used the image often enough at church, and in my published Bible study, and here.

[Jews] talk to Hashem in ways that Christians would probably be shocked by

You mean, like, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
The whole of TaNaKh is included in the Christian Bible.
Sure, theres stuff there any sanctimonious person might turn from.

Ive met lots of sanctimonious people on this board.
They all need to convert to something.

The focus is here, and now, and what can we do?

Yep. Agreed completely.

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Sophiee:

It is the GT that says you are helpless and need some big daddy in the sky to take the blame for all the horrible things YOU (speaking generally) do.

Textual basis, please? Particularly as to the bold underlined text?

P.