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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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MalachiII
Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Wed, 31-Oct-07 22:58:48
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The doctrine of the Trinity whether modern day or 4th century is not to be found in either the GT or the Hebrew Bible at all. What the Trinitiarians on this forum is doing is presupposing the teaching first then they go look for verses that they think points to it.
This might help:
THE TRINITY:
Catholic Encyclopedia:
"...the Trinity was the work of St. Augustine. Western theologians have never departed from the main lines which he laid down, although in the Golden Age of Scholasticism his system was developed, its details completed, and its terminology perfected... He (Ausgustine) views the Divine Nature as prior to the Personalities(the three persons). Deus is for him not God the Father, but the Trinity. This was a step of the first importance, safeguarding as it did alike the unity of God and the equality of the Persons in a manner which the Greek system could never do..."
Thus, as the Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes, Augustine was the first one who taught that G-d is the Trinity, not G-d the Father as Origen, and the other Greek "Fathers" understood.
For example Augustine said:
Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God....
...They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not with the Father the One and only God...are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."....But herein is declared, not only that He is God, but also that He is of the same substance with the Father; because, after saying, "And the Word was God," ....And the same John most expressly affirms this in his epistle: "For we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true God, and that we may be in His true Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."
Hence also it follows by consequence, that the Apostle Paul did not say, "Who alone has immortality," of the Father merely; but of the One and only God, which is the Trinity itself.
(Augustine, On the Trinity Chap. I)
Instead, Origen more than one century before Augustine said:
It is also a question for investigation, whether the "only-begotten" and "first-born of every creature" is to be called "substance of substances," and "idea of ideas," and the "principle of all things," while above all there is His Father and God. (Against Celsus, VI,64)
the Son is not mightier than the Father, but inferior to Him. And this belief we ground on the saying of Jesus Himself, "The Father who sent Me is greater than I." And none of us is so insane as to affirm that the Son of man is Lord over God (Against Celsus VIII,15)
(about John 1:1)We next notice John's use of the article in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Logos, but to the name of God he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of God refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Logos is named God...The true God, then, is "The God," (O QEOS). (Commentary on John II,2)
NOTE:
It is interesting to see how Augustine understood the latin of John 1:1 "et deus erat Verbum" as "The Word was G-d", whereas Origen understood its original Greek with the Greek's niceties which are hidden by the latin text, which lead to "The Word was a g-d".
Hey Doug, show us where ANY of the disciples believed in today's version of the so called Trinity. Also please show where any of the earliest Church Fathers believed in the doctrine. Please do this without presupposing the doctrine and working from there.
Regards,
Malachi
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