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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Medini
Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Wed, 14-Nov-07 12:01:42
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Rebecca:
I did respond to your first few postings from Clement, and others have addressed them as well. I didn't have time to analyze your latest snippets, but here goes:
Rebecca:
Medini and Malachi,
I see the sum total of what Clement wrote as quite powerful in support of the 'trinity', the divine existence of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In addition to what has already been brought forward, we know (from his chapter 5) that he thinks highly of Paul:
"...Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith,
having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West;
and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance."
Paul's "testimony" before authorities included recounting the fact that the resurrected Jesus had directly confronted him as he was traveling to Damascus!
Clement was certainly aware of this claim of Paul's, and of Paul's teaching in general which pointed to Jesus' divine nature and his sinless sacrifice. So in praising Paul, Clement is in essence endorsing his theology.
Medini:
This is speculation on Paul, Rebecca. While one might see some attribution of "divinity" to JC in Paul (although "Biblical Unitarians" will dispute this quite effectively), you have given no evidence of a Trinity in Paul. So, to argue that Clement's support for Paul means Clement is a Trinitarian is simply a non sequitur.
Rebecca:
Jesus, the risen Lord, is able to interact directly with mankind as He wishes from Heaven - to bring people to salvation.
Medini:
As "he wishes" - where is this language in the NT? And even if the idea is there, how does this logically denote JC's "Divinity" rather than simply an ability G-d has given him as His "right-hand man"? It doesn't.
Rebecca:
Also, this is how Clement himself describes Jesus:
This is the way, dearly beloved, wherein we found our salvation,
even Jesus Christ the High priest of our offerings, the Guardian and Helper of our weakness.
Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens;
through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent visage; through Him the eyes of our hearts were opened; through Him our foolish and darkened mind springeth up unto the light; through Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
Who being the brightness of His majesty is so much greater than angels, as He hath inherited a more excellent name.
Medini:
Where is the evidence of Trinity here? Where is the evidence of "Divinity" for JC? A "High Priest" isn't G-d but a mediator - a thought supported by the later "through Him the Master willed...". "Faultess" doesn't = Deity - as "tamim" used of Yaakov (Gen. 25:27) and Noach (Gen. 6:9) shows amply. "Greater than the angels"? That doesn't = Deity either - all tzaddikim are greater than angels (cf. www.nishmas.org/chassidus/bereishis/vayishlach5759.html)
Rebecca:
(chap 36, reflecting Hebrews 1)
In Jesus, we behold God; in in Him salvation is found. He lives, and is even now bidding us come to salvation.
This is how Clement perceived Jesus.
Medini:
Since man is created b'tzelem Elokim, "beholding G-d" could be said of any perfectly righteous man, although not literally. How do you know that Clement is being literal here? Also, salvation being "in him" doesn't mean logically that he is G-d, simply that he is the instrument/means for "salvation". I already addressed this idea of eternal life - which Eliyahu HaNavi also has.
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