Quote:
Malachi's response:
You haven't proven that or even given scripture to back it up. Please read my post dated 11/14/07 8:26 am.
After you have read those verse, please explain why Paul calls your second person of the Trinity the "Firstborn" of all creations in Colossians 1:15 and John calls the same the "begining of" the creation by G-d in Revelations 3:14. I would like point by point details with verse on the realated
subject.


Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Re 3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:...

'Firstborn' can easily be understood as:
origin, genesis, parent, principle, forth bringer of all of creation
It can also be seen as:
Gods firstborn King-Messiah: Israel fullfilled to the full.

Quote:
Malachi:
Take a look at John 8:54
Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your G-d!
Undeniable the Jews claimed YHWH as their G-d. Jesus did not say he was YHWH but that YHWH was his Father. He did not claim to be their G-d but he did claim his Father was their
G-d.


IMU (in my understanding) the relationship between the Son and the Father is a multi-layer one. The eartly communication between Jesus and the Father is first of all that of a man seeking/trusting God. But this communion between them is of such nature, intensity and intimacy that it shows a Son living 'at the bosom of the Father': f.e. nobody knows the Son but the Father, and nobody knows the Father but the Son....Matt.11:27 .
The Sonship of Jesus is:
human/earthly,
messianic/kingly,
heavenly/spiritual (mysteriously).
To man this intimate communion between Jesus and 'His Father' is hidden. (What ordinary man would ever call the LORD God 'his Father' in such a personal and intimate way ?)

Quote:

Malachi
The Trinity cannot be used to support the Trinity? This is the circular reasoning


I agree. Captured in one's own system of thoughts/concepts.
And so is this reasoning:
Jesus is not the Messiah of Israel
A, B and C support the messiahship of Jesus
A, B and C cannot be true because he is not the Messiah
Or:
I reject Jesus' claims, so everything that speaks for those claims, is not true, because I reject his claims..

:)

Aad