Malachi and all,

Thanks for the great responses. Since we're discussing how the Apostles could not have viewed Jesus as divine, I've run across another verse. Hopefully you can explain how this does not contradict your point.

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross (Colossians 1:15-20).

I see how "the firstborn", could be understood to mean that Jesus was created. But, what does "the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" mean? What is the fullness of God...it couldn't be God...strange.

Here's an additional question to this, it seems in certain places in the NT that when discussing Jesus the conversation becomes very...ambiguous(?) or I guess the meaning becomes murky. Reading John 1 it seemed that the word was a different discussion topic from Jesus himself, but as you read on there are definite parallels between Jesus and the word in regard to the use of the word "light" among other things. Any idea why the discussion becomes so confusing suddenly? I can understand complex, but I've read some of this and been genuinely puzzled. Is this an issue of translating from Greek to English? Is it a translation issue or are the texts that confusing in Greek as well?

A final question, "If Jesus believes himself to be God, why doesn't he just say it? Why are we left to solve a mystery? When God wanted Israel to keep the Torah and made the obedience to the Torah a matter of life or death in this world and the next he was very clear about what the Torah is. Wouldn't he be equally clear if he wanted us to believe He was a Triune being?

AP