Erm... yes please. I was kind of hoping you'd at least comment on my study of the word shechah. I actually learned a lot as I went through it, and I thought it was really interesting and extremely relevant to the "topic at hand".

Mark,

I don't see your point about "shechah" not necessarily meaning "worship". On the one hand, you seem to be saying it's not necessarily worship (but rather respect), yet on the other hand, you say that had Jesus stood right in front of you, you'd have gone beyond respect and would have certainly worshipped him at his feet. You're sending a mixed message.

Chaim, I'm not sure why you're bringing this up like a new question. We've covered it in this thread very thoroughly now. It's fine if you don't accept our arguments, but if that's the case, and you don't provide additional basis for refuting them, I really have nothing further to add.

Mark, the point is that beyond our interpretation there are other sources that predate Jesus by about 2 centuries and they prove there was atonement outside of blood (as in fasting, charity, etc.). Here are those references again:

Tobit 4:9-11, 12:8-10, and 14:10-11. Also Ben Sirach 35:1-15 (focus on verses 1-3 and 6), and also 3:3, 3:30; 20:28; 45:23, 5:6; 16:7; 28:5; 34:1.

Therefore, you are in check-mate when it comes to scripture like Ezekiel 18/33 and Hosea 14:2-3, 1Kings 8:44-50, etc. The interpretations of these verses are in clear accord with Jewish thought 2 centuries before Jesus - proving very clearly that Jews always believed in methods of atonement outside of blood sacrifice. So your attempts to show that blood is essential are shown to be in clear error. Why can't you see this?

For me personally, it's because I think you are fooling yourself. You may believe it's because of faithfulness to God, but I would submit to you that you're really only being faithful to Jewish tradition. I don't say this in judgment, but in faith, based not only on my own walk with Christ, but upon Jesus' own words:

Josephus' Against Apion and Tacitus both clearly show that Jews never believed in a Trinity. You're aware that Torah explicitly - and in no uncertain terms - teaches Jews to utterly reject foreign gods never known to their ancestors. How can you say Jews are fooling themselves for doing what God clearly commands?

As for atonement, you were once of the belief that Rabbis probably changed things due to Jesus, but now you've been proven wrong by the literature cited above that predates Jesus by about 2 centuries. Would you say Jews were wrong about atonement during Temple times 2 centuries prior to Jesus and that they should have known atonement came only by blood sacrifice?


And I think you know very well that this is what we believe. So my question for you is - why do you continue to act surprised?

I'm surprised because we're now going beyond intepretation and into what Jews actually believed and practiced prior to the 1st century - BEFORE Jesus - and not just after. You're being shown that a religion based around Jesus is entirely foreign to ancient Judaism and has no foundation in Torah.

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"He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe"

TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5

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