Chaim, it was both. Yes, repentance has always been a critical part of atonement. But so was the sacrifice. If it wasn't, God wouldn't have required it in the Torah.

Tanakh disagrees with you. Micah 6:8 and Ezek 33:11 teach that God only requires teshuvah (which of course includes sacrifices when possible, else the teshuvah isn't a sincere commitment).

Chaim ben Yaakov:
Are you saying that if I understand I need christian salvation that things will just "work out" WRT how Jesus and God are related?

Well, sort of. I mean, I do think the New Testament is pretty clear about it... but it seems to be deliberately written in a way that leaves plenty of opportunity to persist in unbelief, much the same way an atheist can look at creation with unbelieving eyes.


Unitarians think the NT is pretty clear about no Trinity. And it seems none of the early christians for 300 years after Jesus knew of a Trinity. So your interpretation doesn't seem to be clear at all.

I wouldn't say that either. In fact, I've had this conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses. One day while chatting, it occurred to me that if it wasn't God on that cross, it was someone else. And even if that someone else was His Son, if that Son was not fully divine, fully One with the Father, then it was a different cross, and ultimately a different God.

I'm seriously confused by your words. You wrote on 11/5 at 10:53am the following:

I think your question is fair. In fact, I've had this same concern myself. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no place in the gospels where Jesus demanded that we recognize Him as God. Nor could I find any place in the epistles where Paul or Peter prayed to Jesus as God. All of Paul's prayers go something like "I give all glory to almighty God through the Messiah Jesus". Indeed, the overwhelming testimony of the New Testament bears witness to Jesus as the Son of God, who gave His life for the Redemption of all things.

You write that you believe Jesus was fully divine, and earlier that it's pretty clear the NT teaches that - but you also write above that nowhere does Jesus demand we recognize him as God. Well what does that mean? If he's not God, he's not fully divine either, is he? How can you believe in Jesus' divinity but not believe he's God? How can you say the NT is clear when you admit the NT teaches nothing about Jesus demanding to be worshipped as God? That's clear as mud, Mark


Well, I would urge them to re-think their theology, but as to the matter of their salvation, I would leave that in God's hands. And if their salavation was accompanied by the "works" known as the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22), I might conclude that they were in good Hands indeed.

Well then it seems you truly believe that God has no problem with idolatry. Neither does He give a rip whether a professing christian is unitarian or not if Jesus' divinity is denied.

What's the big deal about the trinity, believing Jesus was divine, etc.., if it's basically meaningless to your concept of salvation? Why fight so hard to defend the Trinity if it's secondary to belief in Jesus' sacrifice?


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"He who saves one life... it is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... it is as if he destroys an entire universe"

TALMUD - Sanhedrin 4:5

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