Mark wrote: Chaim, I believe that Rebecca has refuted this statement pretty handily, but even if it was the case that no evidence exists, it is hardly an outright refutation.

Malachi's response: She has not Mark and the desperation to prove the Trinity continues. No one cared to answer my post from before which stated:

(Dialogue with Trypho)

Indeed, Justin thought that in Proverbs 8:22 the scripture stated that the Logos was a "God begotten" by "the Father of all things".

Justin could not think Christ as "created" like the other creatures, and he clearly showed the Logos as a being who was begotten "before all the creatures", but not as old as the Father. The existence of the Logos was given by the Father as "an act of will".

Tertullian:


Quote:
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"The Lord," says the Scripture, "possessed me, the beginning of His ways for the creation of His works. Before the worlds He founded me; before He made the earth, before the mountains were settled in their places; moreover, before the hills He generated me, and prior to the depths was I begotten." Let Hermogenes then confess that the very Wisdom of God is declared to be born and created, for the special reason that we should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated.
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(Against Hermogenes)

Before all commentary i have to say that the english translator was dishonest here with the original latin. Tertullian quoted a latin version of Proverbs 8:22 with the latin word "condidit", which means "created", but not "possessed". Here, clearly the english tranlator wanted to fit this verse with the latin Vulgate translated 180 years after Tertullian.
Going to the point, we see that Tertullian explicitly is quoting Proverbs 8:22 so as to show to Hermogenes that only God alone is unbegotten and uncreated, but His Son who represents His Wisdom, was begotten as Proverbs 8:22 states.

Therefore, before the four century many people of the Christendom believed that the Logos had a temporal beginning "before all the creatures".


The early Church Fathers believed that Proverbs 8:22 proved that the so called second person of the Trinity was created. No Trinitarian on this forum has yet to refute the clear statement of Proverbs 8:22 that is exactly what they believed.

No Trinitarian has explained why Paul called the so called second person of the Trinity in Colossians 1:15 the "Firstborn of all creation" Whenever we have the the phrase "firstborn of "something", the firstborn ALWAYS belongs to the same class or group as the "something". There are no scriptural exceptions when it comes to the phrase "firstborn of "something" and there are dozens of examples to demonstrate what I have said.

Therefore, if we wish to rely upon scriptural precedent as our guide, and not our own wishful thinking, we should adopt the view that harmonizes with scriptural precedent. To do otherwise is to allow our own thinking and wishful desires to get in the way of the truth.

No Mark

Regards,
Malachi