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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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mark
Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Thu, 8-Nov-07 16:48:38
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Chaim ben Yaakov:
Jesus was the 1st creation, right?
I'm sure you know that the specific wording of this question has divided "the church" for 2000 years now. But just as I've stated that Jesus' divinity is essential to the Cross, the context in which you've asked this question makes its implications pretty clear.
No, He was not a created being. While there was indeed a specific time in history where He "became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14), we should not equate that fleshly Tabernacle with the eternal Word. Mary was the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God. Jesus had grandparents. God does not.
Chaim ben Yaakov:
...it seems you're refuted by spirit filled unitarians...
Is there such a thing?
In making this statement, Chaim, it's pretty clear that you are equating "spirited" people with those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Please don't draw that conclusion. One has nothing to do with the other, except to strive to be a poor imitation.
Chaim ben Yaakov:
I take it then that you would have worshipped at Jesus' feet.
You are really making me think here, Chaim - as always... very excellent!
:
)
Chaim, I again acknowledge that I cannot speak nor read Hebrew, but would you indulge me and consider this Hebrew word
shachah
? Here are a couple examples of its usage:
(
Exodus 18:7
) So Moses went out toward Jethro,
prostrated himself
(
shachah
) and kissed him, and they greeted one another, and they entered the tent.
(
Isaiah 60:14
) And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and those who despised you shall
prostrate themselves
(
shachah
) at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you 'the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.'
(
Deuteronomy 11:16
) Beware, lest your heart be misled, and you turn away and
worship
(
shachah
) strange gods and prostrate yourselves before them.
I was just thinking - there's a pattern here. Could it be that God has no objection to us paying the proper respect and even
homage
that someone or some
thing
is due? Do you think God was angry at Moses for offering
shachah
to his father-in-law? I don't. But why? Well, I think it's because Moses did exactly what was appropriate. And how about those Gentile oppressors who are going to offer Jews their
shachah
in God's Kingdom? Any problem there? I think not - because it's fitting.
But how about those people who bow down to idols, or false gods, or the sun? Why would God be so angry about that? I think it just might be because those people, are completely misdirecting their
shachah
when they offer it to those objects. In that case,
the reverence and homage that is specifically due to God is being paid to something else
.
Same goes with the New Testament examples of the Greek word
proskuneo
. A delinquent debtor offered his
proskuneo
to his master (Matt 18:26). I don't think there was anything wrong with that. Why? Because it was appropriate. The debtor was expressing appropriate respect and submission to one over him,
who had the power to affect his life
.
And so it goes with Jesus. Even if he wasn't the divine Word in the flesh, He was every bit deserving of the
proskuneo
that was paid to Him during His time on earth. When that sinful woman came in and offered
proskuneo
at His feet, do you think she thought she was worshipping a god, or God Himself? I don't think so. I think she was simply offering due homage, reverence, and gratitude
to a man who had changed her life
.
But now, according to Philippians 2:9-11, "God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Chaim ben Yaakov:
Is it fundamentally the bottom line or is it not?
Bottom line? Yes, I think it truly is. And you are free to pursue the bottom line if you wish. Perhaps that is your call. But I'm just saying - most people prefer to start with the top line.
Chaim ben Yaakov:
Where's your outrage against idolatry and heresy?
I think I tend to save it for the "big guns", so to speak - people who wear their religion on their sleeve as the go around condemning everyone else, never bothering to stop and look in the mirror. These people make my Savior look bad. Sometimes, I admit - I feel outrage.
Chaim ben Yaakov:
Since atonement seems to be THE issue... why have a desperate need to defend the Trinity as though it's the most essential ingredient within salvation?
Let's put it this way: when I discuss God's Word with atheists, I don't take the same line that I might take when I discuss with Jehovah's Witnesses, or Roman Catholics - just as you wouldn't when discussing with atheists and Conservative Jews. I tend to start with the "top line" on each page.
Chaim ben Yaakov:
it looks like I'm getting conflicting messages from you and the rest of the christians here, Mark.
I'm sure we all agree on the need for salvation from our sins, and how the Cross met that need for the world.
Thanks again, Chaim. Excellent as always.
Peace
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