Chaim ben Yaakov:
Can you at least try answering those questions I asked of you? I try to answer all you ask of me.


Absolutely. I just didn't want to drag something out that you might have felt we'd already moved past. I will be happy to answer those questions. Let me know if I miss one.

Chaim ben Yaakov:
As I wrote to Aad, God's hand is mentioned as well as the evil spirit of God.


Chaim, even according to your own translation (e.g., 1 Sam 16:14) it's from the Lord, not of Him. Big difference there, I'd say. I don't mind confronting issues, but please - let's use what's written.

Chaim ben Yaakov:
Are those entities part of a quaternity or pentaternity?


Right. See, this is why I would like you to decide which issue you want to debate: is it the unbibilcal word "trinity", or is it the divinity of Jesus? I wholeheartedly believe in the latter, but the former I see no need to debate, at best. I mean, even the New Testament refers to the "seven spirits of God" (e.g., Rev 4:5).

So let's stick to discussing the idea that the Word of God is very God Himself.

That reminds me...

I've been meaning to ask you about the way the Torah is approached in a synagogue. Do you not kiss the Torah as it is carried around in procession? Do you not bow before the Torah as it is returned to the ark? Do you not take great pains to ensure that the Torah is not dropped, or mistreated in any way?

You show a tremendous amount of reverence for the Torah. If the Torah is an inanimate object, without the power to bring blessings to you unto itself, why do you do this?

Could it be because you recognize that the target of your reverence here is not so much the Torah scrolls themselves, which are indeed nothing but paper and ink, but the living Word of God which they contain?

Chaim, if the Word of God is not very God Himself, then is it not reasonable to suggest that you are fully practicing idolatry to show it such reverence?

Chaim ben Yaakov:
I don't see your point about "shechah" not necessarily meaning "worship".


Here's what I wrote (link):
Quote:
"Could it be that God has no objection to us paying the proper respect and even homage that someone or something is due?... And so it goes with Jesus. Even if he wasn't the divine Word in the flesh, He was every bit deserving of the proskuneo that was paid to Him during His time on earth."
I'm not sure I can say it any better than that.

Chaim ben Yaakov:
Mark, the point is that beyond our interpretation there are other sources that predate Jesus by about 2 centuries and they prove there was atonement outside of blood


I think we're covering this in the other thread. I'll take it up there, okay?

Chaim ben Yaakov:
How can you say Jews are fooling themselves for doing what God clearly commands?


We have gone through this many times before. For now, I will just say that the 2000 year absence of a Temple - the place where God said He would set His Name forever if you were faithful to Him - cannot be an accident. It must have been decreed by God or it could not have happened. So I do not say you are fooling yourselves about following God's commands per se, but about missing His judgment in your overall relationship with Him. And the observed tendency here to blame other Jews for it is at the heart of the problem.

Chaim ben Yaakov:
you were once of the belief that Rabbis probably changed things due to Jesus, but now you've been proven wrong by the literature cited above


I believe that the modern Jewish theology evolved as a response to the current state of affairs - most notably the 2000 year absence of the Temple. And while I don't know that anybody had Jesus in mind when they came up with certain doctrines, I do not think it is entirely inaccurate to summarize modern Jewish theology with the phrase "Jesus: all wrong, all the time". In general, if Christianity says it's a circle, modern Judaism says it's a square.

As for being "proven wrong" by that other literature, as I said - I'll take it up in that thread.

Chaim ben Yaakov:
You're being shown that a religion based around Jesus is entirely foreign to ancient Judaism and has no foundation in Torah.


Not even close. At best, you're offering some reasonable questions, the answers to which are highly subject to interpretation of scriptures, and events. But it is not even close to a "slam dunk", or "check-mate", or whatever you want to call it. Note that I don't presume to think I've presented such a case to you either. But even here, you are only fooling yourself, and anyone else who wishes to see your view of God justified.

Peace :)