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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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MalachiII
Re: Not exactly Rebecca. . .
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Tue, 13-Nov-07 04:53:33
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Hi Rebecca,
I have to disagree. The early Church Fathers did not have the same concept of the Trinity as Today's apologist. For example, let's look at John 10:30 I and the Father are Two G-ds according to Origen:
Origen Dialogue With Heraclides
One of the Paypiruses found in Toura, near the Cairo, in 1941, is a Codex of the end of Six Century. This Codex contain the text of a the controversy of Origen with Heraclides. Origen in his dialog with a bishop named Heraclides discusses the difference between the Father and the Son in QEOS terms. It seems that at the third century Heraclides was accused of Modalism (the Father and the Son are the same person). The bishops called Origen in order to interview Heraclides. The Dialogue was before the bishops and the people and there were scribes who coppied exaclty what they said.
Here we can learn about the difference between the neuter greek cardinal hEN (one) and the mansculine cardinal hEIS (one).
This is portion:
Origen said: "Christ Jesus, who exists in the form of GOD, though he is distinct from the GOD (TON QEON) in the form in which he existed, was he a God (QEOS) before he entered a body or not?"
Heraclides said: "He was a God before. (QEOS PRO HN)"
Origen said: "He was a God (QEOS) before he entered a body, or not?"
Heraclides said: "Yes."
Origen said: "a God distinct (ETEROS QEOS) from this GOD (TON QEON) in whose form he existed?"
Heraclides said: "Obviously distinct from any other, since he is in the form of that one who created everything."
Origen said: "Was there not a God (QEOS), Son of GOD, the only-begotten of GOD, the first-born of all creation, and do we not devoutly say that in one sense there are two Gods, and in another, one GOD (hENA QEON)?"
Heraclides said: "What you say is clear; but we say that there is God, the almighty, GOD WITHOUT BEGINNING (QEON ANARXON) and without end, containing all things but not contained, and there is his Word, Son of the living GOD (TOU QEOU), god and man (QEON KAI ANQROPWN), through whom all things came into existence, god (QEON) in relation to the Spirit and man in that he was born of Mary."
Origen said: "You do not seem to have answered my question. Make it clear; perhaps I did not follow you. Is the Father a God (QEOS hO PATHR)?"
Heraclides said: "Certainly."
Origen said: "Is the Son distinct from the Father?"
Heraclides said: "How can he be the Son if he is also the Father?"
Origen said: "While the Son is distinct from the Father, is he himself also a God ( KAI AUTOS ESTIN QEOS)?"
Heraclides said: "He himself is also a God. (KAI AUTOS ESTIN QEOS)"
Origen said: "And the two Gods become a unity (hEN)?"
Heraclides said: "Yes."
Origen said: "Do we acknowledge two Gods?"
Heraclides said: "Yes; the power is one."
Origen said: "But since our brethren are shocked by the affirmation that there are two Gods, the subject must be examined with care to show in what respect they are two and in what respect the two are one GOD ( hEIS QEOS EISIN OI DUO)." And many times two are taugh to be a unity (hEN) in the divine scriptures....Adam and the woman are distinct; Adam is distinct to the woman, and the woman is distinct to the man. But, suddenly it's said in Genesis that the two are one: "and they shall be one flesh". Thus, it is possible, sometimes that two are one flesh. However it is noteworthy in the case of Adam and Eva that neither it isn't said both will be one spirit nor both will be one soul, but both will be one flesh. Furthermore, in spite of being the men distinct of Christ , this is what the Apostle called to be ONE (a neuter unity (hEN)) in Christ. "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit (hEN PNEUMA ESTIN)" (1 Cor 6:17). Is not true that one is of a essence less perfect or inferior, whereas Christ is of the essence more divine and the better glory?. The answer is NO, because the man and the woman are no longer two but one flesh, the same with the man just and Christ, they are one spirit (PNEUMA hEN). As well, our Savior and Lord, in relation with the Father and GOD of the universe, is not one flesh, is not one spirit, but, what is better than the flesh and the spirit, one GOD (hEIS QEOS).
Commentary:
Until the third century, to say "The Father and the Son are two QEOS" wasn't an heresy. Also,some Theologians at the third century regarded The Father and the Son as being ONE G-D. However,as you have read, Origen understood the phrase of his time "The Father and the Son are one G-D" not in onthological sense but in the same sense as the Christian could be one in Jeus. However there were theologians one century after Origen (IV century) who regarded this Biblical statement in literal sense.
Translated by me
Regards
Malachi
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