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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Thomas
Re: trinitarian challenge
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Sun, 25-Nov-07 09:49:29
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Chaim wrote:
"Also, 3 distinct persons in a Trinity, if distinct, are by definition FINITE."
When I protested that this is Greek logic, he responded:
"There's nothing greek about 3 distinct beings being finite and separate from each other. It's simple logic."
Well, it was primarily the Greeks that introduced us to this kind of logic, and it has led many astray before. It appears simple, but it can be deceptive, especially when we deal with infinity, which is never simple. Perhaps you are familiar with Zeno's paradox, in which he asserted that one cannot do an infinite number of things in a finite amount of time. Then he pointed out that an arrow has to cross an infinite number of half-way points before reaching a target. Therefore, it becomes impossible to reach the target in a finite amount of time.
The solution to Zeno's paradox is that we can certainly can do an infinite number of things in a finite amount of time. We cross an infinite number of points each time we move a centimeter. The arrow simply crosses the half-way points at an increasing rate that goes to infinity as the arrow approaches the target. What seemed to be an obvious premise from Zeno is false, yet probably millions of people through history bought it and as a result were baffled as to how an arrow could reach a target. Fortunately, we can see with our eyes that an arrow reaches a target, but in areas where we cannot see, a serious deception can take place by means of these "obvious" premises.
If this example is not enough to see the danger in simple logic about infinity, let's look at geometry. There are many kinds of infinity, in fact, an infinite number of kinds of infinity, and many are of different sizes. Let's start with a ray and a line. How long is a ray? Of infinite length, since it goes forever in one direction. Yet, a line, which goes forever on two directions, is longer than a ray, because if you subtract a ray from a line, you are left with the opposite ray. Two infinite entities, yet one is twice the size of the other. Using "simple logic", I could have "proved" to you that is impossible.
Expanding our concept to a plane, we get into another level. A plane is also infinite (as is a half plane, or a quarter plane), but we not only have infinite distances, we also have an infinite number of lines, or directions, included in one plane. Therefore, a plane in a infinite thing which contains an infinite number of lines, and is therefore infinitely greater than an infinite entity called a line.
Now I hear someone say that true infinity is not a plane or a line, but infinite space that includes infinite directions and distances in all 3 dimensions. It also includes an infinite number of planes. Of course then, space is a much bigger infinite existence than planes or lines, which are also infinite. But we are not through yet. It is mathematically possible to have an infinite number of dimensions of space, yet our mind cannot visualize even four, unless we consider time to be the fourth dimension.
Thus, in geometry, it is possible to have an infinite number of infinite entities which are distinct from each other. But that is not all, oh, no, that is not all. (Here I start sounding like the "Cat in the Hat".) If we consider 3-D space as being infinite, yet we insist that there can be no distinctions within it, how could we define material, or gravitational fields? A gravitational field within space is also theoretically infinite, extending outward, but diminishing according to the law of inverse squares, and approaching zero as an asymptote as the distance approaches infinity. Are we to say that a gravitational field is not distinguishable from space itself, or that space cannot be infinite if it contains distinctions such as this? That is what Zeno's type of "simple logic" would tell us.
When we come to the concept of God, whom the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain (II Chronicles 6:1
, we are at a complete loss to apply any of this "simple logic". We don't even know what kind of infinity God is, and if we did, we could not say that there are no distinctions within that infinite existence. If we were to say that an infinite God has no distinctions, then we are led directly to pantheism, the Hindu concept that everything is part of God. It's "simple logic", but it's false.
(1) God is everywhere and nothing can exist where God is not.
(2) If something is distinguishable from God, then God is not in that thing. This contradicts the statement that God is everywhere.
(3) Therefore, nothing is distinguishable from God.
Is this why many Jews get into eastern religions?
Science needed to jettison Aristotle before it could make progress. Theology needs to do something similar. Go only by what the Tanach SAYS, and leave "simple logic" out of it.
Having said that, I believe that doctrines of the Trinity are most likely guilty of the same kinds of errors. No, Constantine, you Roman / Greek contaminant, we do not need to define God before we can worship Him.
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