Quote:
Malachi's response:
This all sounds like a nice explanation but the problem is there is no scriptures to support it at all. The fact remains Jesus was considered a created being by the early Church Fathers who quoted Proverbs 8:22 to provide evidence that he was the first one created and then used by Jehovah (YHWH) to created everything else.
Colossians 1:15 and Revelations 3:14 backs this up beyond doubt. You have done nothing to
overturn these scriptures.


Prov.8:22-26.
The Word/Wisdom of God has been generated by God, was born of God, before al times; and the Word always was at the bosom of God, like the proverb says: I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him (verse 30).

BTW: The text of Prov.8 and 'the Wisdom' of course is antropomorphism; from Christian perspective it may be read as signifying the eternal Word/Wisdom. But the text itself does not prove anything.

Colossians 1:15
He is the firstborn of all creation:
1. if you read context you see that He is not pictured as a creature but as the origin of creation.
2. He is the firstborn in this sense that Christ, who was generated as a man, was Gods firstborn: His holy firstborn. Ex.13:2. This firstborn was the image of the invisible God;

Revelations 3:14:
He is the beginning of creation: I don't really see the problem. It can perfectly be understood as: He is the active cause (arche) of creation.

Quote:
Malachi
John 1:18
In what sense was Jesus an only-begotten son? Does anything Johns says lead us to believe the term "only-begotten son" does not mean what we would normally think it would mean? We know that the term means when it is used in reference to other people so whey should the reader ascribe a totally different meaning when it is used in reference to Jesus?


Only begotten son: = son of God.
1. in his human existence: generated by God (Matth.1)
2. in his transcendent existence: born from God before all times, light of light, always at the bosom of God;

Both meanings can be read in the text. Although John emphasizes the second, transcendent meaning.

Quote:
Malachi
The fact that Jeus is said to have created all other things does not prevent himself from being created. Just read Revelations 3:14 because that is exactly what it says.


A creature that creates everything and is glorified for that? : very unlikely, and illogical.

Quote:
Malachi
You are holding onto a doctrine that must rely on it own definition in order to refute the scriptures that appear to refute it rather thn simply relying on the scriptures.
The evidence is overwhelming ezAad that Jesus is not G-d or part of a Trinity. Try reading the Hebrew Bible and GT without presuppoing the doctrine of the Trinity and you will see that the evidence for the Trinity is very weak.


To me the evidence is far from overwhelming. I'm not convinced at all.
The doctrine is founded on the self-revelation of God in Jesus, in accordance with the Scriptures.

Aad