Malachi, you are claiming to understand the NT, though not believing the core testimony of the NT: the revelation of God in Christ Jesus, His eternal Word, through which He created everything. I admit I am not a theologian, who knows Greek, Latin or Hebrew. I rely on others in these matters.

So you say that the writer of Col. says in ch.1 verse 15: he is a creation, and in verse 16: For by him were all things created......all things were created by him,for him; and verse 17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. How do you match this? (without explaining this by calling the writer stupid).

As I said: 'Firstborn of creation' is, I think, a reference to the HT where is spoken of the firstborn (Ex.13:2); the firstborn is holy to the LORD. And this firstborn is the heir. This could explain the use of the phrase the firstborn of creation: he is the rightfull heir of everything. If you have a better
explanation that is in harmony with what follows in the text, I'm interested. I'm always learning.
(J.Gill says: prototokos (firstborn) may mean: 'first parent'; it depends on where you lay the accent. ?? )

Rev.3:14 'arche' :OK it does not mean source; but it is translated as 'beginning'.
Now, is not God the Beginning of creation?

Quote:
ezAad wrote: Only begotten son: = son of God.
1. in his human existence: generated by God (Matth.1)
2. in his transcendent existence: born from God before all times, light of light, always at the bosom of God;
Both meanings can be read in the text. Although John emphasizes the second, transcendent meaning.

Malachi's response: Again, no scriptures to back up what you say the GT teaches. Jesus and his disciples used a lot of parables and examples to explain his teaching but NEVER the examples you gave above. Again this is the doctrine of man not of G-d.


1. The doctrine of the Trinity is man made, but Scripture (NT) based. The fact that the HT does not fully reveal the trinitarian nature of the One God is because this is related to the coming of the messiah. God has revealed Himself gradually to mankind within the history of mankind esp. Abraham, Israel and her messiah.

2. Jesus and the disciples pointed to his authority: he spoke the words of God as no ordinary man should speak. The sermon on the mount f.e. (Matt.5,6,7) is spoken with authority. Only a God sent man can speak that way; or otherwise he must be extremely arrogant. If you don't believe He is the One, then I can imagine his way of speaking must be highly irritating (he speaks as if he is God himself).

3. "In the beginning was the Word..." John 1. This means : before everything else, before creation.
John 1:3 : All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John describes that God revealed Himself through His Word, that He sent down into the world. 'Trinity', trinitarian way of speaking about God is part of that revelation with the coming of the messiah. Something new dawned. Moses gave the Law, but with Jesus mercy and truth was given, the filling to the full of the Law, the spiritual update of the Law, which is love. (John 1).

4. Trinitarian formula's are found plenty in the NT; the disciples believed in God the father, the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit; and they gave the three equal honor and glory, while at the same time holding to the Oneness of God. The disciples/apostles were inspired in a new way, through the coming of messiah and the gift of the Spirit, as was promised in Joel: I will give My Spirit upon all all flesh.

Quote:
Malachi
If we just listen to what we WANT to be true, then we will ultimately end up with MAN'S teachings rather than G-ds.


I don't want the Trinity to be true. As I said above it is based on Scripture; but it starts with accepting the messiah, that he brought something New. God promised in the HT He would bring something new, The HT testifies of that.

Quote:
Prov.8:22-26.
Malachi
The idiomatic aspect of this expression is seen in Jesus' birth. Wisdom is spoken of as being born, which is contextually understood as "created." Similarly, Jesus would be understood as being "born," with the background of the text being that of creation (it being an allusion to Wisdom literature).
So Aad, my refutation stands: Proverbs 8:22 says that wisdom was CREATED by G-d and the church always this to
mean Jesus, and then used as a masterworkman.


I'm not claiming the Wisdom-text to be a direct link to Jesus. The birth of Jesus is indeed within the context of creation: Luke writes that way, and I agree. Through the word of God, and His Spirit overshadowing Mary (like the Spirit of God hovering above the waters, Gen.1) Jesus was created/generated, in his human existence. God assumed humanity through His Word and Spirit: therefore Jesus is the union of God and man, inseparable and also without confusion; son of God, according to his humanity and according to his divinity (as the Word of God).

I don't have more to offer you, thanks for now.
Aad