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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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MalachiII
Re: trinitarian challenge
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Sun, 13-Jan-08 19:21:44
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ezAad wrote: 2. But if it refers to his being created, it could point to his human existence, because Jesus as a man was created/generated, there is no doubt about that. It can also be that speaking of the words create/creation is confusing in relation to the Trinity.
Malachi's response; I would say it is confusing! Because it is the doctrine of man not of G-d. Now, let's go back to what you wrote. Colossians 1:15-16 is talking about is in the begining not when Jesus was born, otherwise how could he be the firstborn of creation? he would not be the First one born. No Aad, this is talking about the preexistence of Jesus, as the Son.
Malachi's response: The other paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 are all conjecture.
ezAad wrote: From my point of view this can be understood as a compliment/confirmation: because this is exactly where it is all about in the gospel: that He has become a member of creation; he became one of His people, and one with his people.
The mystery of the Christ is about God and man, Creator and creation. Christ is both, somehow.
Malachi's response: Like you said "From my pont of view" and then you also added "somehow" Aad you have no argument to over turn the clear definition of the word and decided to supply your own.
Aad I read the rest of what you had to say and you could not overturn anything I wrote without you adding "from my pont of view"
I see it as a twofold strike against Trinitarianism. Just as there are no undisputed examples of where "prototokos" is stripped of its natural meaning, there are also no examples of where prototokos followed by a genitive was NOT part of the same class or group in the genitive.
And the "hoti" clause that follows naturally provides the reason why he was the FIRSTBORN creation, because all other creation came AFTER him by means of the fact that they came THROUGH him. Fits like a glove!!
Therefore to believe that Col. 1:15,16 shows the Son to the first creation of G-d is entirely contextual and grammatically and denotionally precedented with a huge number of database examples to support it, in fact, none to the contrary found within the Hebrew Bible nor your GT.
That coupled with the same scenario in regard to "arche" in Revelation and "qanah" in Proverbs, I personally feel that a Trinitarian should feel extreme guilt in trying to overturn such outstanding evidence.
That threefold witness to the creation of the Son should stand as the ABSOLUTE to clean up any ambiguity presented in the scriptures as to the relationship between the Father and the Son because they stand natural and precented statements fully consistent and comliant with what is revealed in the scriptural record.
It is interesting that only the Unitarian understaning of G-d finds this natural and precedented harmony within the Bible, without the need to pull in extra-Biblical philosophy and terminilogy found in Greek and pagan systems of belief.
I have often wondered and have presented the challenge for a Triniarian to attempt to defend their doctrine without the usage of their Biblically unprecedented definitions and philosophical ideas. Unitarians can defend their position and explantions every step of the way with the Bible, using its natural languiage and precedented meanings, Trinitarians simply can't, even to the extent of denying that the Son is an actual, literal son of G-d. In a very certain sense, they deny the Son, and if you deny the Son, you don't have the Father, at least according to John.
Best regards,
Malachi
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