Malachill, Malachi's response: That's your definition Doug, not the Bible's. The *****ural pattern proves that the most natural way to take the phrase at Col. 1:15 is that Jesus is a part of creation, the FIRST part, the FIRSTBORN. There are NO exceptions for the use of that phrase in the Bible. Whom shall we believe? You, or the *****ural established precedent? The answer should be obvious.

Once again Doug, if we stick to *****ural precedent and usage, the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus being referred to as the "firstborn of all creation" indeed makes him a creation, and the first one at that. there is an extreme burden of proof upon you to prove otherwise.


I am not defining Firstborne... I said it and Firstfruits when it comes to Jesus are metaphors.

If you want to take Firstborne of creation as literal, then since Cain was the firstborne of Eve.... who was Jesus's mother before Eve, that Jesus should precede Cain as the literal firstborne?

Doug wrote: Let me add something new to this discussion.

Holy Trinity
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Prophesied to come in the nt....

Unholy Trinity
Satan, Antichrist, False Prophet

Malachi's response: The desperation continues. What oh what does that have to do with the definition of Firstborn? Let's stick with Co; 1:15-16 before jumping to another topic.

BTW The unholy Trinity is NEVER defined as these three being one in substance!


(disclaimer: least there be any confusion, to my knowledge none of the following is part of Judaism's belief.)

I didn't say the unholy trinity had anything to do with Firstborn. But it does have to do with the subject matter of this thread TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians .

I agree with you that the unholy Trinity cannot match the unity of the Trinity. But that doesn't mean that Satan does not try to imitate the Trinity. This principle is widely accepted by Christians who study the prophecies of the nt and ot (kjv).

For example, that the Antichrist will suffer a mortal wound, that is, he dies and comes back to life is an imitation of Jesus coming back from the grave. And that the Antichrist is prophesied in 2thess2:3-4 to go into the earthly temple of God (soon to be rebuilt), and SIT and claim that he is god - is the imitation of Jesus ascending to sit at the Father's right hand. And that the Abomination of Desolation (in the nt) that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee when it happens (Matthew 24), that statue (in Revelation 13) "Stands" in the holy of holies, next to the Antichrist and represents the Father of the Trinity. The statue, incarnating by Satan such that the statue appears to live, breath and talk (oops, no snake this time) is an image of the Antichrist imitating Jesus saying if you have seen me you have seen the Father. And there is more, but that is enough to see the pattern of an unholy trinity as an imitation of the Holy Trinity.

Sincerely,

Doug L.