As far as I have read it would be safe to say that most of Protestantism would hold the view of Father, Son and Spirit as being "One." But to get to the matter presented--which is as good as an excuse to stop reading about pagans--I found my previous post might have been overlooked. I went to a few off site Xian sources and they all hold that Jsus was not a created being but instrumental with creation as G-d. The concept of "Firstborn" is also echoed much in the same way as Scofield's notes which I presented in my earlier post. The reason for this post is to show that the GT pretty much considers Jsus as G-d. This post is only about the GT and the claims made therein. I am convinced that the Hebrew text shows that G-d cannot become a man. That nothing more can be added beyond the Hebrew text. I apologize for making such a long post. Okay, here we go.

Off site quote:

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The Greek word translated "firstborn" is not a noun, but an adjective. If it really refers to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam was the firstborn man of creation (although he wasn't really born). Cain was actually the first to be actually born into the creation. Jesus was not born until thousands of year later. The word "firstborn" in this verse does not refer to a physical birth, but refers to Jesus' position to inherit the creation.


The idea is that "Firstborn" in the Greek refers to a position rather than actually being born or created. The position is about being an "heir." I checked with my handy dandy Vine's Dictionary and it confirms that Jsus was not a created being but existed before creation and produced creation. This is the actual word usage in Vine's.

off site source quote:

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Jesus is to inherit the creation. It has nothing to do with being created. Verse 18 from this chapter of Colossians goes on to directly contradict Jesus being created describing Him as "the beginning."2 This same verse describes Jesus as being the "firstborn from the dead" and defines Jesus as having "first place in everything," demonstrating that "firstborn" refers to position and not creation.


What was this off site website talking about?. In the Revised Standard Version of Col. 2:9-10 we get a better clue: 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In the King James and Darby "Godhead" is used. In the New American Standard Bible "Deity" is capitalized.

Now lets have a look at KJV Philippians 2:6 which says: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Darby--6 who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; 7 but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men; 8 and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and [that the] death of [the] cross. 9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and granted him a name, that which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal [beings], 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord to God [the] Father's glory. Revised Standard Version--6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now getting back to Co. 1:16 we have to note that it says: KJV Col. 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: RSV--16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. Darby--16 because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.

With these verses anyone can come to the conclusion, from the GT perspective, that Jsus was G-d who came out of heaven being born in the likeness of man. Not only that but to be worshiped as well.

I don't like making long posts but considering the subject matter I find myself having to continue. Lets get back to the to what the GT is talking about "heir" when it comes to Jsus. Let's look at KJV Hebrews 1:1-3 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Revised Standard Version--1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, Darby--1 God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, 2 at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being [the] effulgence of his glory and [the] expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high,

If you are wondering why I am presenting various translation is because I felt the need to convey the various shades of meaning the Greek Text has. At any rate, the idea of heir is consistent with Col. 1:15 that a position exist. But lets go further to the gospels. KJV Matthew 21:33-43 33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What I underlined conveys the idea that Jsus is the "heir" and that G-d is owner of the vineyard. In the Revised Standard Version we see in verse 37-39--Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. Darby with the same verses--37 And at last he sent to them his son, saying, They will have respect for my son. 38 But the husbandmen, seeing the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and possess his inheritance. 39 And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him.

As far as I can tell from the various translations Jsus was instrumental in the creation of the universe and the idea conveyed is that the universe was created by him or for him. Philippians shows that Jsus left heaven with the word usage that he emptied himself of his G-d form to become human. He is an heir to all of creation. From the provided text we see that at a future date that all of mankind will bow their knees to Jsus. We also see that he sits next to G-d's right hand on a throne which gives the impression that he vacated it for a number of years and retook it after making purifications for sins.

We can see there is a lot here to show a favorable Trinitarian argument from the GT perspective. The Hebrew text only shows that there is only "ONE G-D." And that has already been stressed repeatedly.

John T.