Doug wrote: I am not defining Firstborne... I said it and Firstfruits when it comes to Jesus are metaphors.

Malachi's response: Wrong Doug and here is why, The BDAG lexicon gives two basic meanings for PRWTOTOKOS:
1- "Lit, pert to birth order, firstborn,"
and
2- "Pert to having special status associated with a firstborn."

The metaphoric definition derives from the literal one. "The special status enjoyed by a firstborn son as heir apparent in Israel is an implicit component of PR." (page 894)

Another thing Doug, when the hoti clause, which describes WHY he is called the firstborn, demonstrates the literalness of WHY he is called the firstborn of creation, the first one born of the class of creation. Why? Because all other things were created AFTER him because they were created THROUGH him. The hoti clause makes it a very literal understanding of the phrase. Really, there is nothing that I see here as even indicating a figurative meaning.

So Doug there is not one undisputed text that does so that removes the concept of "first one born" from the designation "prototokos", even in figurative designations. It's always there. Nice try Doug but no cigar!

Doug, the stuff on the unholy trinity is wont help you get of this mess Doug. Paul and the rest of the early Church has believed in only one G-d, YHWH and that Jesus was NEVER though of as a member of a Trinity.

Doug wrote: If you want to take Firstborne of creation as literal, then since Cain was the firstborne of Eve.... who was Jesus's mother before Eve, that Jesus should precede Cain as the literal firstborne?

Malachi's response: Wrong on all points Doug, However, would you have us believe that PASHS KTISEWS "all creation" is a reference to Mankind? For that is what you would have us believe! Would you then argue Doug that it was through the man Jesus that "all things" or "all other things" were created?

Doug the Christians writers never used PASHS KTISEWS in reference to the begining of mankind.

In actuality, if Paul wanted to show that Jesus was NOT a creation, he would not have used a phrase that grammatically every where else would mean that he most definitely IS a part of creation. That you have yet to refute Doug.

Will all those who feel that the word 'firstborn' in the Bible, can be used as figurative only, without a connection to the literal sense, please post the scriptures here.

Best regards,
Malachi