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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Thomas
Re: Re: trinitarian challenge
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Thu, 29-Nov-07 08:31:18
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My Recent Posts
"Neither Josephus or Philo wrote about a divine theophany occuring in Genesis 18 wrt the 3 angels and Abraham. So here is clear evidence that reading a so-called theophany into the text is not logically or deductively warranted. Unitarian christians do not see a theophany in Gen 18 either."
As has come out before, I am very weak on historical studies from the early Christian centuries. Besides being a mechanical engineer and a math teacher with 8 years of college studies in those areas as well as in science, I am a musician and a father of four children. The time I had to dedicate to theological studies was spent almost entirely in the English translation of the Tanach and the NT. All that I am able or trying to do here is to point out that the NT is consistent with the Tanach. I do have a copy of Josephus' writings, but I never considered that his opinion on theological matters was authoritative, and in my drive to understand the Bible, never gave him more than a passing reading of part of the book. I have already explained why this does not bother me; it is because the majority of scholars have often been wrong an a number of issues. I do not agree that there is no evidence of a theophany. As I pointed out, Abraham approached the Lord. You can only approach someone when you are aware of that person's location in the context of physical life, in which Abraham was. I admitted this is not absolute proof that one of the men was the Lord, but it is certainly a likely possibility, just from this passage.
Regarding Genesis 18:1, there are other examples in the Tanach in which a theme is announced in a global form, then details are filled in. For example, Genesis 1:1 says "God created the heavens and the earth," yet that does not mean that by Gensis 1:2 the creation was completed. Genesis 12:10 says that Abraham went down to Egypt to sojourn there, but in the next verse, we find Abraham approaching Egypt. Even so, when Genesis 18:1 say that the Lord appeared to Abraham, it cannot be maintained that the Lord's appearance was complete before he saw the three men.
"So once again, what real evidence can you bring that shows ancient Jews knew of God or expected God to "incarnate" as a human? I'd say you have no evidence of this at all."
I believe that the evidence is in the Tanach, in the many appearances of the Lord in human form, to Jacob, to the elders of Israel, to Manoah, to Isaiah, etc. plus the references to the Messiah being the Lord of David, etc. but we have already discussed those before. That is evidence to me that the prophets believed that God would appear in human form. What the masses of people might have believed is moot, since we all know that the masses of Israel at one time believed that Jeremiah was a false prophet.
"If James and Peter taught this, I think you'd agree their heretical/idolatrous "ministry" wouldn't have lasted a week in Jerusalem around the Temple grounds."
No, I do not agree with that last statment. The NT already tells us that the Jews who did not believe in Jesus were trying to kill the apostles, (and Peter was rescued by an angel) especially the Sadducces who did not want to admit a resurrection. The NT makes clear what they taught, since Paul, James and Peter were in complete agreement on all points of doctrine, and it was not and is not idolatrous, in spite of how many Jews have interpreted this. The NT records that thousands of Jews accepted the message of Jesus in the first century. If you don't believe the NT, I am not prepared to prove it from other documents as I just explained. I am only here prepared to defend the NT against misunderstandings.
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