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TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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Re: TRINITARIAN challenge to Protestant Christians
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MalachiII
Re: Re: trinitarian challenge
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Sun, 2-Dec-07 01:32:06
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eZad wrote: I think the Church nor the Apostles believed "Jesus was a created being". That is: concerning his human nature he was created/generated of course (Luke 1:35 is a reference to Gen 1:1, the Spirit of God hovered over the water), but as the Word of God he is not created, on the contrary, He is the Word by whom God created everything. And the Church and the Apostles always gave Him the glory and honor for that.
See for example: John 1; Hebr.1; Rev.5:13; Col.1:15,16.
Malachi's response: You said That is: concerning his human nature he was created/generated of course (Luke 1:35 is a reference to Gen 1:1,
Malachi's response: Then there would be no relationship between the word firstborn and why he was called that because the firstborn requires one to be the FIRST one BORN in relation to the following genitive, which is on this case, creation. The context is NOT about his human nature because Paul is talking about CREATION.
Aad take time to carefully read this Once again, if we stick to scriptural precedent and usage, the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus being referred to as the "firstborn of all creation" indeed makes him a creation, and the first one at that. there is an extreme burden of proof upon you to prove otherwise.
Luke 1:35 and Gen1:1 and the rest of those unconnected verses will also not help you as it is ambiguous and dtermines nothing, besides, we need to finish Col 1:15 before we move onto that.
Besides Aad The grammar employed in verse 16 clearly shows Jesus to be the instrument of creation employed by someone else, not the originator of creation. So using Gen 1:1 does help your cause at all.
Malachi's response: You wrote: but as the Word of God he is not created, on the contrary, He is the Word by whom God created everything. And the Church and the Apostles always gave Him the glory and honor for that.
See for example: John 1; Hebr.1; Rev.5:13; Col.1:15,16.
Malachi's response: Your argument is circular. In actuality, if Paul wanted to show that Jesus was NOT a creation, he would not have used a phrase that grammatically every where else would mean that he most definitely IS a part of creation.
Read Provers 8:22 again Aad, It says wisdom was created first then USED as a master workman to build everything else. Prov 8 aslo shows that this "production" was from times "earlier than the earth", so that could not apply to Gen 1:1.
Colossians 1:15-17 is condensed into a single statement in Jewish Wisdom literature. Wisdom is "created before all things." (Sirach 1:4) This parallels back to Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX, where Wisdom is created as the first of G-d's works. The reason "born" is used is because Proverbs 8 refers to Wisdom's creation as birth, which is itself idiomatic for creation (c.f. Psa. 90:2).
Revelations 3:14 says explicity that your second person of the Trinity was the begining of the creation BY G-d. You have done nothing but quote unconnected verses to try to disprove it but it doesn't.
Regards,
Malachi
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