Michael, we have no need to prove the existance of Adam, Abraham or Moses to you.

Don't believe? Fine. We really don't care.

But YOUR religion is based on the belief that all these people existed. YOUR religion says Jsus descended from OUR King David.

Well, it doesn't really -- but it tries to.

If you don't want to argue the existance or non-existance of Jsus that is fine. It is totally unimportant in Judaism if he ever lived or not. But, not to burst your bubble -- there is NO proof that he ever lived. None.

Nada.

Zip.

All those mentioned by Xians like Josephus, Tacitus, etc. don't fit the bill of being able to prove his existance or lack thereof.

Start with Josephus as he is a favorite for folks to use to insist that Jsus was real.

Josephus didn't mention Jsus -- that was a later insertion by a Xian "scribe." Let's just examine what we know about Josephus.

Josephus was a Jew. He never became a Xian and he never believed Jsus was the messiah. He was born in 37 CE --- which post dates Jsus supposed death. Ergo never saw Jsus and wasnt even alive when the Xians say Jsus was alive. Josephus wrote many years after Jsus supposed death starting after 67 CE.

Some of Josephus writings speak of Yeshuas but it is a common enough name. It may or may not have been the man-god worshipped today.

The most flagrant of Josephus "quotes" is found in Antiquities 18.3.3 -- it is an obvious later insertion (possibly by Eusebius the bishop since it first appeared in his timeframe (300 CE).

Earlier Xians, including Origen (who worked hard to convert Jews and Pagans to Xianity) never mentions it. And Origen DID write about Josephus saying (in Contra Celsum) that Josephus did not believe in Jsus as the Chrst. (If even Origens quote is not itself a forgery. Louis Feldman, the pre-eminent Josephus scholar, says that Origens Contra Celsus does not reference "the 18th book of his Antiquities").

Only when Eusebeius shows up we get the infamous quote that contradicts Origen. Eusebius was a bishop known for outrageous quotes. Eusebius is definitely not a reliable source. My three favorites from him are:

1. A letter of Abgar to Jsus,
2. Jsus' reply
3. A picture painted from life, of Jsus!


Modern archeologists discovered an Arabic version of Josephus that does NOT contain the quote so loved by Xians. It is a later forgery. Again, from Louis Feldman the reknowned Josephus historian:

Quote:
"In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work."


So much for Josephus being a source for the "real" existance of Jsus. I also

From www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm

Quote:
There is no historical reference to Jsus life, death or the crucifixionnothing at all. John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Chrst: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence 1 lists the following contemporary historians/writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus was supposed to have lived:

Apollonius Persius
Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus
Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon
Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela
Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian
Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca
Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius
Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus
Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus
Paterculus Valerius Maximus
Pausanias

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jsus. . .



But as I said, it is immaterial. Does it matter that Sherlock Holmes never lived? He sure had an impact on many.