Mark:   

 NOTE:  Because of the questions/comments you had presented, I felt it was necessary to present you a detailed explanation.  Please review the entire post.  I apologize that it's lengthy but I tried to detail as much as possible on this subject.  Thanks! 

My original question was:  "So are you suggesting that whichever "healer" or "prophet" that comes along and produces the best miracles and best displays is actually the "real god""  You stated:

No.  But it's a moot point, since I'm guessing you've never witnessed any miracles done in the name of Jesus. As far as any other gods are concerned, if you can direct me to some evidence, I'll gladly check it out.

I do not think it’s a moot point.  I'm a little confused.  On one hand it appears you're dismissing my question but then proceed to, in effect, answer a resounding "YES!"  By jumping in and immediately advance the claim that that xianity indeed offers the best miracles and displays the best goods, it trumps everyone else's claims. And the xian god (jeesus--since you specifically mention him) trumps the gods of other religions and trumps the G-d of Israel.   I might remind you that indeed Judaism and xianity are exclusive of each other, despite xianity's claim that both it and Judiasm share the same Book and that xianity "came from" Judaism.  And even if there were evidence as to the miracles produced by other religions, would that really be enough "evidence" and truthfully, is it really "evidence" since every religion, including your own, touts miracles?

And to be sure, I have been privy to the claims of my Jewish friends who have relayed events which they deem as being "miraculous".  

However, it is here I think we should stop and focus on what I mean by "miraculous".  I am STILL of the opinion we had better define our terms. You seem to think Miracles are "supernatural".  However, I love Rabbi Kahn's definition of what a miracle is (from the Jewish perspective):

"Miracles are naturally occurring phenomeon with amazingly good timing!" 


So given that definition, my Jewish friends certainly do have every right to define/interpret their experiences as a "miracle". They certainly didn't go chasing for them.  G-d was gracious in manifesting His kindness in that fashion and because of such, they have a deeper affinity for their Creator.  And they do not feel the need to advertise this miracle (as its occurrence is self-evident) as xians are so wont to do as "proof" of their 'god's power" and as an "advertising pitch" to get people into their camp.

Given the definition Rabbi Kahn presents, I do believe my friends did experience a "miracle".   However, given your stance that only xians have valid miracles, I would assume it is up to your discretion as to what constitutes a "miracle" and no doubt you would just dismiss this.  After all, this didn't it come from "jeesus" and given the natural occurrence of things which followed, you would dismiss it as not being 'supernatural" since that apparently is your fixation.  You've said as much:

People of all religions offer up very pious sounding prayers that affect almost no visible results - and we're okay with that - as long as nobody else is producing results either.  

So the question remains, what happens if other religions (including Judaism) produce "results"?  However, again, we must define our terms:  What is deemed as 'results'?  What is your barometer concerning what is a 'result"?  Acceptance of the Jman and his "holy spirit"?  Did it ever occur to you that there are miracles and wonders experienced by those in Judaism?  To take something so personal, so sacred and so intimate and publicly put on show is an affront to not only the relationship but also an insult to propriety.  Besides, it's nobody's business.  Our relationship with G-d is ours.  We don't have this compulsion to show off for everyone like so many of these faith-healers and miracle workers do (and you have to concede that most ARE charlatans!) So I am very interested as to what you consider "results".  

But really would it matter?  Implicit in your comment is the possibility and the right to dismiss anything that doesn't align itself to the theology of xianity.  This isn't a charge against you personally but it appears you are simply parroting and defaulting to the xian way of seeing the world.  So invariably, you'll come to invalidate the miracles of other religions but ironically wishing we (and others) simply accept your claim about the veracity of the miracles allegedly occurring in the xian camp.

And again, I must stress that xianity doesn't hold a monopoly on miracles (even though currently it asserts that only its miracles are valid).  As I've said three to four times before--Every culture and every religion touts them.  Only the “miracle chasers” are fixated on the validity of such claims.  There are references in Egyptian hieroglyphics wherein the Pharoahs attribute their victory over their enemies to the various Egyptian gods.  Also there are claims in Greek chronicles about healings that took place in the Temple of Artimes/Diana.  Just because you may challenge the validity of these "healings" doesn’t change the historical fact—every religion claimed miracles in the name of their god/pantheon.  

Miracles/wonders/signs/et al. are NOT the proofs that any religion is "truth".  The validity of such "miracles" is subjective.   Just because your variant of xianity touts them doesn't mean your variant of xianity is any more valid than the hundreds of past cults, empires and religions who claimed miracles in the name of their gods or goddesses---and some of them may have been valid.  

Also as a brief aside---there are many variants of xianity which do not chase after miracles and signs nor claim them as some validating proof of their theological clams.  So not all xians are "miracle chasers" or expect to live in the "supernatural" as a common feature of the xian life.   Would an absence of miracles or the "supernatural" within these branches of xianity (as miracles and such are not the focus of these groups) invalidate these groups as not being xian enough as they don't have "results"?  So is xianity some sort of "wonder" sport?  


And again, what truly gets to be qualified as a "miracle"?   Isn't the fact that that the Jewish People and the Torah (and their relationship with G-d) still remain after 1970 years of xian and now muslim persecution, itself a miracle?  Or is it that you don’t accept this "miracle" because it is not specifically linked to your jeesus (apart from xian retinkering of Hebrew Scriptures)?  

 As to whether or not I have had personally seen “miracles” in the name of Jeesus.. the bottom line is that for a Jew it most certainly is irrelevant, immaterial and just plain pointless (not to mention traif).  Yes, I have been privy to the claims of those among the congregations I attended in my 15 plus years as a xian.  And it should be noted that I subscribed to a variant of xianity which in many ways EXPECTED the ‘supernatural”.  But to actively seek and expect miracles (again a “miracle chaser”) is really a sign of faithlessness and idolatry per the G-d of the Torah.  And yet your NT accuses Jews of demanding and wanting signs to believe, which shows the NT knows nothing of Judaism.

But let's take this "miracle thing" one step further.  So what if there were certifiable miracles (and I am certain there ARE certifiable miracles/healings and such both in xianity and other religions)?  Are they enough proof that one religion is the truth and all others false?  Is it truly a game of religious label reading wherein we're to make sure that a sign of a "valid" religion has miracles as its first ingredient?

Again, if you would have read my posts, the Torah actually says that even if the “sign (word) or wonder (miracle) were to come to pass, if the person doing this even in the name of G-d induces others to leave the worship of G-d (as Israel knows Him) for a method NOT outlined/prescribed in the Torah, that person is not to be believed and is to be executed.  And we give it no mind/validity as it is simply a test from G-d as to our commitment to Him, even if there is the possibility we could obtain what we most want apart from Him (ala Jeesus, Zeus, the voodoo lady down the street, etc.) It is unholy and spiritually damaging for a Jew to even entertain this, valid or not.  The defining element is not whether it's valid; the question is rather one of holiness.  The Torah says it's unholy for a Jew.  Other religions may tout "results" but the end "result" of a Jew's involvement in that religion is total spiritual annihilation.  This is implicit in the Torah.  The one who engages in such deception is "cut off" from Israel.   And we see it so clearly within two generations.  Those who abandon Judaism within two generations cease to exist as Jews; and no, this messy-antic abomination doesn't count.   So miracles aren't the defining factor whether something is truly from G-d or approved by G-d. 

Furthermore, Sophiee1 was kind enough to spoon-feed us the injunctions against many of the things that xianity espouses as “supernatural”---talking to demons (that’s what an exorcism is), future-telling (words of knowledge), mystical visions of heaven (ala Revelation and "end time" pronouncements), prophetic words (end time scenarios and "Left Behind" series, anyone?), speaking in tongues, trying to tell Jews about the "end times" and basically that Jews live and die as some sort of move in a Cosmic/Jesus vs Antichrist end game; inducing/seeking healings via incantations (and using Jeesus’ name as a talisman to effect healing IS an incantation), etc. 

 You also asked:


Can you name even one supernatural manifestation, apart from Hebrew scripture, that you can honestly say you believe?  Or is it all merely "emotional experience"?

We're called to be faithful to Torah.   Torah is our guide, not our senses.  So if there are a ton of certifiable miracles (which is an absurdity since all miracles are subjective), so what?  

But to personally answer your query:   do I believe there are miracles in other religions?  Absolutely.  But do I then want to drop everything to run after that? Absolutely not.  We are not to be "miracle chasers"

Again, to reiterate, the Torah stated that there would be religions claiming and actually producing miracles (Israel saw it with the Egyptian magicians).  We are not to engage in such nonsense not because it cannot produce a result but rather it is NOT HOLY.  If you go after idolatry, you will get your miracles---that's why Ancient Israel tried to marry the worship of Ba'al with their worship of G-d.  The Prophet Elijah had to confront this contradiction.. choose one side or the other!  They wanted both.. the logic of the Torah with the mysticism and possibly "supernatural" of the Ba'alim.  They were as Rabbi Tovia Singer joking referred to them "Hebrew Ba'alists".  Doesn't matter if there were miracles or not, it was idolatry nonetheless.  

So what if xianity (or any other religion) can produce book-loads of miracles?   We give it no mind  and no importance as it is simply a test from G-d as to our commitment to Him, again, even if there is a possibility we could obtain what we most want apart from Him (ala Jeesus, Zeus, the voodoo lady down the street, etc.) the lure of miracles deludes us from the Divine.  Again, it is UNHOLY.  Even if there are results. 

As for your dismissal of any validity to these other than being an "emotional experience"...In my experience/tenure as an evangelical, pentecostal xian, the majority of these "miracles" attributed to Jeesus were encapsulated in a very emotional experience.  I find it ironic that you'll dismiss the miracles of other religions as mere "emotional experiences" (which I'm sure they are), you may want to look at the base of xianity's own altars where the ecstatic writhe for jeesus.  But again this is silly because you want us to do a comparison of that which is anathema and of no consequence to Jews/Judaism/the G-d of the Torah.  Miracles simply aren't the focus.   Again, we are not to be "miracle chasers". 

You then offer:
We've covered this so many times... but again, Jesus never "induced" anyone to worship any god but the God of Israel.  Agreed?
I guess you never read your own NT wherein the accounts presented he didn't do anything to dissuade worship. When the Roman officer came and worshipped him and when the disciples worshipped him after the alleged resurrection, you're saying he didn't want anyone to worship him but rather god??   And you also missed the two accounts in the NT wherein a woman begged Jeesus to heal her daughter.  In both instances, he called her a dog.  She literally had to grovel before he would do anything.  

Xians do not worship the G-d of Israel. They can mouth that they do but in theology, it's antithetical to Judaism/Torah.   If they did, they'd abandon Jeesus post haste and become Benei Noah or those the NT trips itself up mentioning... "G-dfearers" those righteous gentiles, not Jewish but neither were they pagan or xian.  The NT records there were several thousand of them (if not more).   And the irony is they didn't come to embrace the concepts of Judaism because of a scad of miracles.  In fact, they came to appreciate Judaism because of its systematic and holy approach to day to day living.  

So we do not agree on that issue, either. 

Then you stated:

Yes, we all agree that Hebrew scripture is full of the supernatural miracles God performed for Israel before the days of Jesus.

Again, this assumes two things which are at odds with the Jewish Scriptures and the manner in which one needs to approach those narratives.  How xians interpret the miracles of the Tanakh is NOT how the Hebrew of the Tanakh presents them.  The fact that the miracles (and remember Rabbi Kahn's definition), are mentioned in the Tanakh presupposes that we must assume that it is NOT the norm!  Additionally, it must be stressed that G-d did these in extenuating circumstance, they are NOT to be expected as a daily occurrence or even as a benefit for adhering to Torah.  This is where Jews and "miracle chasing" xians like yourself part company.  We know these are EXCEPTIONS to the normal course of the laws of nature;  however (based on your previous posts) you expect to live in this constant state of "supernatural".  

But is that even remotely possible or even to be expected?  Absolutely not.  How do I know?  The Hebrew Scriptures themselves!  We have a PERFECT example of someone who WAS expected to live in this constant state of "expecting the supernatural"... MOSES and the physical and spiritual toll (not to mention the physical/spiritual requirement of being in a constant ritually pure state.) it took on him.. and he was receiving DIRECT contact from and with G-d Himself.  

And in case  you did not read the account.  All of Israel for a brief moment in time were at this level!  Yet it could not be sustained (societally, how could it be?  who would feed the animals, who would work? who would do the job of child rearing, going to work to support the family, etc.?).  Faced with the amazing holiness and the constant requirement to remain ritually pure and holy, Israel asked that Moses be the spokesperson.  And what was G-d's response?  "How dare you!"?  No.  He said that Israel had spoken well in this request.  Therefore Moses was appointed as the prophet to not only receive "face to face" communication with the Divine, but as a requirement, had to separate himself from his family, friends, etc to remain in a constant state of ritual purity and devotion to G-d.  So do you really think xianity or any other religion lives in the "supernatural"?  No what you are purposing is a watered-down psychologically-deluding knocking off of the Presence.  And therein lies the genesis of your confusion and the fields to promulgate this notion of "miracles".  Your level of the "supernatural" is not of the Holy One at all.  It is the product of the group "hysteria" (and I use that word not as a derisive term, but as an outgrowth of the prescribed incantations, songs, hymns and mental fixation of the group to effect a dynamic not achieved in private devotion.)

Moses (and the prophets after him) had to be on an extremely high spiritual level.  We're talking about LITERALLY communing with the Holy not some imagination of the mind.   Moses' level of prophesy is the standard by which all prophets until the last one, Malachi, were judged.  Even the subsequent prophets (who were on a much lower level of prophecy than Moses, but much higher than any of us will ever know) had to possess a very high degree of both mental and spiritual stamina to remain in this prophetic state.    

So  the Tanakh is replete with miracles, but it is also replete with reminders that this is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.  That's the difference between xians and Jews in reading the JEWISH scriptures. 

Now as to this bit about the 'days of jeesus"...This assumes that jeesus existed.  Again no proof.  So you're the arbiter of miracles?  There were miracles in the Temple right up until its destruction (but xianity ignores the validity of the Mishna and later the Talmud).  I would go one step further that G-d's preserving the Jewish people for close to 2000 years from that horrific moment is itself a miracle.  Other nations fell like dominos to xianity and then to Islam then to xianity with its Reconquista and it's 13 crusades, with Jews always being killed, butchered, exiled, forcibly converted (those that didn't outright choose death over kissing the cross).  The Jews remained.  If you're looking for proof or validity as to who has the truth... try looking there.  





Last Edited By: Arikm7 Mon, 26-Aug-13 06:41:28. Edited 1 times.