Douggg wrote:
Sophiee, in verse 25 messiah comes........ in verse 26 messiah dies.     How many messiahs?
Douggg --  why do you keep repeating the same "questions" even though you have been told numerous times over NINE years the answers?  How can you ask "how many messiahs" with a straight face when even Chaim told you in 2006 (9 years ago) that there are two messiahs?   I also told you this on THURSDAY.  Between Thursday and today have you suddenly forgotten the answer???

I do not believe you are stupid or that your memory is that faulty -- I think you are trolling and missionizing -- and I grew tired of these antics long ago.  It would be different if you were new to this forum -- but for NINE years you have been given the same information, ergo it is beyond credulity that you do not know the Jewish answers.   This is my irritation with your continuing to harp on this topic -- you have been told the answers for nine years, and yet you "innocently" pretend (and let's be honest Douggg it is nothing more than a pretense) that you do not understand the Jewish understanding of Daniel 9. 

For the last time --  verse 25 speaks of the FIRST messiah -- the one who gave the word to rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus).   In verse 26 the second messiah does not die -- he is כרת / kareit (cut off) which usually refers to a person who is so evil that he is spiritually cut off from G-d and the Jewish people.   In Hilchot Teshuvah 8:1, the Rambam wrote:
This is the intent of the meaning of the term כרת in the Torah, as [Bamidbar / Numbers 15:31] states: "That soul shall surely be cut off."
Again this has been explained to you for NINE LONG YEARS.  

Why don't you go back and re-read this thread if you have some memory problems in recalling what you have been told time and time again?  Back in January 2008 I wrote (and you replied, Douggg, on January 29, 2008 -- check the thread).  I am not releasing any more of your repetitive nonsense on this thread.   If you have trouble understanding the Jewish position then go back and reread the thread started back nearly EIGHT YEARS AGO (2008).  

READ R' Shulman's article -- which for some reason you refuse to read --  even though doing so would "answer" your questions.  This leads me to believe that you have no interest in the answers -- just in stirring up the same nonsensical arguments you have dredged up for nine years. 

From January, 2008:

We've discussed these ad naseum. Daniel 9 is ancient history (literally) and spoke of two messiahs, both long dead.

The first messiah was Cyrus, the Persian king. The second was so horrible he deserved kareit -- being cut off.

Artscroll's translation and footnotes make Daniel 9 more clear.

Start with:

Quote:
Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his (Darius son of Ahasuerus) reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of HaShem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem. 2. I set my face toward the L-rd, G-d, to beseech (with) prayer and supplication, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.


I start here so you understand that Daniel's visions are tied to the prophet Jeremiah. Now to the stuff of proof texting:

Quote:
24 Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

25 Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until a messiah, the prince (messiah #1 -- Cyrus, 7 shavuim) will be seven septets
, and fir sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat but in troubled times.

26 Then, after the sixty-two septets ,
מָשִׁ֖יחַ / a messiah (messiah #2 -- 434 years later  62 shavuim) will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come and will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end will be (to be swept away as) in a flood. Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed.

27 He will also forge a strong covenant with the great ones, for one septet, but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offerings and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute (abomination).

It can't be one messiah -- Jesus did not live for 500 years!   The first messiah gave the word to rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus) -- 7 shavuim  (weeks). . .

The second messiah is cut off after an additional sixty-two shavuim (weeks) -- 434 years.   Jerusalem was destroyed -- long after the first messiah was dead and gone.

One messiah was not alive for 483 years, Douggg. . . . there were two messiahs. . .  and one was so evil he was / kareit (cut off).

Read the Artscroll footnotes -- which were shown to you in 2008 -- 7 years ago, and many times since:
Quote:
9:24 Lit., seventy weeks, this phrase refers to seventy times seven years or 490 years. This refers to the seventy years of exile that have passed sine the Destruction of the First Temple (Sophiee's note: see 9:2-3 quoted above) until this vision and the entire 420 year period of the Second Temple (Rashi).

9:25 The septets (shavuim) refer to full seven-year periods. The prince of this verse is Cyrus, who gave permission to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. He ascended to the throne fifty-two years (seven full septets plus three years) after the exile has begun. From then until the second destruction of Jerusalem was 438 years, or sixty two septets and four years (Rashi).

9:26 I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the second Temple era. After his death, the prince of this verse the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog in messianic times (Rashi).

9:27 The Roman emperor would make a treaty with the Jewish nation for seven years, but for the second half of the term the Romans would violate that covenant and impede the Temple service. The mute abomination, i.e. a temple idolatry, was erected by the emperor Hadrian on the Temple Mount (Rashi).


סופי

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Bereshit (Genesis) 21:12
Last Edited By: Sophiee1 Sat, 5-Sep-15 22:39:12. Edited 1 times.