Hi Sophiee, Quote:Genesis 17:15 G-d said to Abraham, 'Sarai your wife - do not call her by the name Sarai, for Sarah is her name. 17:16 I will bless her, and make her bear you a son. I will bless her so that she will be [the mother] of entire nations - kings will be her descendants.'

G-d promised Abraham that the Jews would have a king. Yet when this happens for the first time (Saul) you say we rejected Him.


Well, I read that Sarah would be the mother of entire nations, and not Israel specific. So I don't see the linkage you are drawing.

How so?

Now on the one hand you have Saul making a statement to Israel that they are rejecting the elohim who saved them from adversity. It could be that Saul was speaking of G-d but just as easily he could have been speaking of the judges who had, up till then, run Israel.


I think you mean Samuel. ;) Anyway, no, to me it is definitely God they are rejecting, not as God, but as king, since they had no king over them since leaving Egypt. God ruled the Israelites through the prophets (and judges I suppose).

The reason that it could not be the judges they were rejecting is because of the language in verses 1Samuel kjv 10:18 And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you:

10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.


I think it is just as important to note that the Israelites were not rejecting God as God. Did it hurt God's feelings?
In my opinion definitely "yes". Not only that, but also God could foresee what would be the results of their having a man-king over them.

Quote:35:10 G-d said to him, 'Your name is Jacob. But your name will not be only Jacob; you will also have Israel as a name.' [God thus] named him Israel. 35:11 G-d said to him, 'I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and increase. A nation and a community of nations will come into existence from you. Kings will be born from your loins

So here we have two promises from G-d. How do you suppose that G-d rejected G-d as their king when they did exactly what G-d promised Abraham and Jacob?


The Israelites motivation was not to fulfill Genesis 35:11, but to have a king like the surrounding nations instead of a prophet over them. Sophiee, the problem with your arguments is that you are arguing to me, but what is clear in the text is that it says that they "rejected" God, as God spoke to them through Samuel, in precise words. It is not my twist on things. Can you not just accept 1Samuel10:18-19 for what it says?


Zechariah 14 is another thing altogether and has nothing to do with the messiah -- when he will or will not come. Zechariah 14 is speaking of a time when the nations will again turn on the Jews and G-d will save us. The entire world will then realize that the Jews were right and that HaShem is the one and ONLY G-d.


How can universal knowledge of God be worldwide before the Mt. of Olives is split, in Zechariah 14:4?

Afterwards, it says in Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

If, in theory, there becomes universal worldwide knowledge of God before the mount of Olives is split - then that annulls Zehcariah 14:9, which can't happen, right?

So if one of the messiah requirements is that he brings worldwide knowledge of God - then no one can be proclaimed messiah according to your source until.....

Quote:
The successful candidate will be expected to bring about certain conditions as part of his sovereignty, though some will commence prior to his being identified as the Messiah. These must include, but not necessarily be limited to, the following:

6. Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Is 11:9)


Universal knowledge of God, according to Zechariah 14:9 doesn't occur until after the Mt. of Olives is split.

Peace,

Doug L.