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who would die for a lie?
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Re: who would die for a lie?
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Thomas
Re: who would die for a lie?
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Mon, 16-Jul-07 08:30:20
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Well, I finally got around to checking in again, and find out that Sophiee has judged me to be an angry person. Well, I just saw an advertisement for a movie called Anger Management. Maybe I ought to see it.
As I stated already a couple of times, I came into this forum to help correct misconceptions of what the NT teaches. I hate (there's my anger again) to see people make conclusions based on misunderstandings, and took the assumption (I know you dislike assumptions) that there was probably someone there who would welcome having possible solutions to alleged contradictions pointed out, so you could concentrate on perhaps more substantial objections to the NT. I have been surprised that when I have tried to point out a resolution to a difficulty, no one has ever said, "Okay, I didn't notice that, and although I still maintain my position, I agree that this example is a weak argument that we should drop." Instead, my proposed solution has either been ignored to concentrate on something else, or I have been told that I failed to prove my point, even when I stated directly that I was simply trying first to point out possibilities. You take a look at what you are doing and draw your own conclusions.
SearchinMyRoots complains that no one has answered his alleged contradictions in the NT accounts. Again, assuming that you really want to know if there are possible answers, please notice the voluminous list of challenges and accusations that Doug and I have had to wade through, and it is easy to miss or forget about your short post. I have already appealed to the posters here to keep things more focussed so this doesn't happen.
"Dougg,
So were Thaddaeus, Matthew or Bartholomew disciples or were they replaced by Nathaniel, Joseph of Arimathea and Judas son of Simon (or son of James)?"
Even though I am not Doug, I will try to help out a bit here. The number of disciples varied greatly, and included not only Joseph of Arimathea, but several hundred by the time of Pentecost. The 12 disciples were a special, core group. The only replacement made to this core group was the substitution of Matthias for Judas.
"How many were present when the risen jc appeared to them?
10 - John20:24
11- (Judas was dead) Matthew 28:16, Mark 16:14, Luke 24:23
12- (Even though Judas was dead) Matthew 27:5, Acts 1:18, Corinthians 15:5"
The short answer is that he appeared to all 12, which included Matthias (ref Acts 1:22). I Corinthians 15:5 is a summary statement that would have included Matthias in the 12. Jesus actually appeared to over 500 people, according to I Corinthians 15:6. Luke 24:33 (not 23) indicates that the two from the road to Emmaus came to the eleven to tell them about seeing Jesus, after which Jesus appeared in their midst, yet John 10:24 tells us that when Jesus appeared, Thomas was not in their midst. My suggested resolution to this alleged contradiction is that Thomas was present when the two from Emmaus appeared, but walked out before Jesus appeared. This suggestion has the support of John 20 that indicates Thomas' hostile attitude to all who claimed to have seen Jesus. It is unlikely that he would have stayed to hear the excited account of Jesus' appearance, but would have walked out in disgust. Thus, Thomas was not there WHEN JESUS APPEARED, even though he was there when the two first arrived, which is all that Luke 24 says. Matthias very possibly was in the room also. Later, of course, Jesus appeared to Thomas as well.
"Where did this take place?
Jerusalem - Luke 24:13-53 or
Galilee - Matthew 28:7-20"
When you say "this" you seem to be assuming that there was only one appearance of Jesus. According to Acts 1:3, Jesus stayed around for 40 days and the record on Matthew was of a special time of teaching, on a deserted mountain in Galilee. In Matthew, the disciples were instructed to meet Jesus there, since he was not always visible, and they did not continually accompany him as before the resurrection. He first appeared to them in Jerusalem, then in Galilee, then at Jerusalem again for his final appearance to them on the Mount of Olives, and who know where in between these appearances.
"They recieved the hs when?
The first Easter Sunday- John 20:22
On Pentecost, 50 days later Acts 1:5,8 2:1-4"
The teaching of the NT is that the Holy Spirit was present in a limited way before Pentecost, mainly indwelling Jesus himself upon his baptism (Matthew 3:16), but also being active in the birth of Jesus and even giving Zacharias' prophecy Luke 1:67, for example. Jesus gave a special and limited gift of the Holy Pirit to his core group in John 20, which did not even include Thomas at that time, as we have seen. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was a general outpouring of the Holy Spirit that indwelt all believers.
Now, please note that I am not expecting these explanations to turn you into a Christian believer. I would like you to drop these challenges from your list of unanswerable problems with the NT, since you can see that there are possible answers, even if you personally do not accept the answers. I am merely trying to demonstrate internal consistency in the NT here.
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