Dougg:

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I don't argue that is what Judaism believes, Uri. I have confidence that you know your own religion quiet well, in depth. But I think you will have a hard time proving that solely from the text.



Here we go again, it's not what Judaism believes, it is what G-d, via the Torah STATES. But again, you play this game with the moderators. And PROOF from the Torah is far easier to support than your ASSERTION. The Text (both the Written and Oral Torah) states things rather plainly; something you fail to grasp or refuse to grasp. In addition, when it comes to the Torah, it is not a "text only" requirement. Since the Oral Torah and Written Torah give the full Divine Intention, both are needed. But contrary to what you have just said, it is not the Text alone that presents that which you claim is "hard time proving that from the text", it is, again, YOUR failure to grasp the concepts of the Torah/Tanakh. You are trying to use the Tanakh to support YOUR version. It is not that the Tanakh fails to mention it.. blame is not on the Text, blame is on you for trying to configure your belief as a universally accepted concept of the Tanakh, when the Tanakh does NOT offer this. So rather than state that your premise is incorrect in view of the Tanakh, you, like always, concede that the Jewish position and nay, the Holy Tanakh (G-d's own transcript of His dealings with Israel) must be wrong. This is truly arrogance to the utmost degree.

But the reality is very clear that the moderators have PROVEN the viewpoint of both the Torah and the Tanakh time and time again.. it's your hang up that refuses to get it. Each of your five recycled points have been systematically refuted by the erudition of both UriYosef and Sophiee. You will NOT accept this. You relegate it a BELIEF; rather than a FACT of Judaism. By relegating it to a belief, you think that as such, you can offer "proof" to change this. However, you will never be able to do so. And so we go round and round again.

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Moses didn't accomplish freedom for the Children of Israel until his Second coming to Egypt. Right? Didn't he bring the message "I am" who sent him, the universal knowledge of God's name, to the Children of Israel, on his Second coming to Egypt?



A "Second Coming"? Oh please, Dougg, whereever did you come to this erroneous conclusion? There never was any "second coming' with Moses!!! You are trying to draw xtiological comparisons between your jeesus and the "prototype" to your supposed Jeesus. However this is simply NOT borne out in the Text even though you are trying to "xitnize" the Torah text to substantiate the ideology of the "second coming" of Jeesus.

But the facts are that Moses wasn't comissioned twice to do a mission. He left Egypt as an Egyptian Renegade Prince and returned as a Hebrew Prophet! This in NO way is indicitative of a "second coming" Your forced "similarity" to your jeesus is a just that, a forced assumption! Moses wasn't dead for 2000 years and then suddenly appeared to redeem. He appeared to the elders of israel and accomplished his mission in his lifetime. You tried to sully Moses by asking the question in your last post about how many Jews Moses led into the Promised Land. The answer is none. Moses was not to enter the Promised Land, though He was allowed to see all of it. You're trying to play fast and loose with the Torah and it's revolting, childish and extremely reaching. I'm sure the scholars here will correct your inane thinking and "comparitive" analysis regarding this comparison.



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Likewise, isn't universal world wide knowledge of God one of the things that the messiah is supposed to do? Well, Moses did it for the Children of Israel on his Second coming to Egypt, not his first. He was rejected by his own people the first time.



Again, you're reaching. If Jeesus was the Messiah, then why are there now more than 120 different sects of xtianity, another religion had come on the scene after his arrival and departure, two world wars had come and gone and claimed millions of lives, countless battles, insurrections and coups have ravished almost every part of the world and millions have died at the hands of those claiming to be Jeesus' followers but without your "messiah" doing anything? Again, this series of serious questions has NEVER been answered by you, but you claim that Jeeus is the messiah. Again, the onus is on YOU to make your case that he was, not that we have to prove he was not.

In addition, Moses wasn't THE Messiah. Although he may have been A Messiah, there was NO second coming; which is a xian perversion of the Jewish job description of the Messiah since Jman didn't fulfill anything during his lifetime. In addition, Moses was and is and will be the standard by which all prophets and in some respects the Messiah is to be judged; in fact, what G-d spoke and Moses taught was that even the Messiah must undergo a series of tests and examinations before he is even considered to be a candidate. As such, it's reaching to try to associate Jeesus with Moses. The two are as far apart as Sodom and Jerusalem and making such comparisons cheapens Moses' work and position; especially when Moses taught that anyone like Jeesus should be ignored and if the Court is standing, to be stoned for idolatry and subjugation of the Divine Command.

Moses was comissioned in Horev to go to Egypt as G-d's prophet to announce that G_D, NOT moses, was going to liberate the Israelites from the Egyptian tyranny. This is NOT a second coming. It is Moses first arrival as a Hebrew, not an Egyptian Prince. There is none of the "second coming" nonsense, no matter how you try play fast and loose with the Text. Nor was he "rejected" by his own people. Moses did NOT even identify with his people until he returned to Egypt (by the pressing of G-d) and stood before the elders of Israel for their approval.



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Exodus 2:14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known. kjv



You're playing fast and loose with the Text and with the timeline. You left out the fact that while the Hebrews DID have a right in this.. after all Moses wasn't a leader and wasn't a chieftan over any israelite. This is hardly "rejection". You left out the next verse:

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Pharoah heard about this matter and sought to kill Moses; so Moses fled from before Pharaoh and settled in the land of Midian. He sat by a well. Exodus 2:15 (the Stone Edition Chumash)


This clearly states that Pharoah himself sought to kill Moses for what the Pharoah thought as an affrontage to Egypt. As such, Moses fled Egypt and went to Midian. So you're supposition about "rejecting" bears no weight here. Moses feared reprisal and even the text states that the pharoah was going to kill him! Ironically, only when this Pharoah dies does G-d "heard their moaning, and G-d remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob. G-d saw the Children of Israel and G-d KNEW" [Exodus 2:24-25 Stone Edition]



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3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. kjv



However, you left out so much to this story in the attempt to prove that Jeesus is the New Moses.. this is what you failed to include:

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And He (G-d) said, "For I shall be with you- and this is your sign that I have sent you: When you tak the people out of Egypt, you will serve G-d on this mountain" Moses said to G-d, "Behold when I come to the Children of Israel and say to them, "The G-d of your forefathers has sent me to you, and they say to me, 'What is His Name?' -what shall I say to them? HaShem answered Moses "I Shall Be as I Shall Be." And He said, so shall you say to the Children of Israel, 'I Shall Be" has sent me to you.' G-d said further to Moses: So shall you say to the Children of Israel, HaShem, the G-d of your forefathers; the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac and the G-d of Jacob, has dispatched me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My Remembrance from generation to generation. Go and gather the elders of Israel and say to them, 'HaShem, the G-d of your forefathers has appeared to me, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob saying, 'I have surely remembered you and what is done to you in Egypt. And I have said I shall bring you up from the affliction of Egypt to the Land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Hivvite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey


And as for Moses being "rejected" by his people:


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Moses and Aaron went and gathered all of the elders of the Children of Israel. Aaron spoke all the words that Hashem had spoken to Moses; and he performed signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed and they heard that Hashem had remembered the Children of Israel and that He saw their affliction, and they bowed their heads and prostrated themselves


So much for "rejecting". In addition, the Commentary makes a very interesting point with regard to your assertion that it was Moses who brought universal knowledge of G-d's Name. It asserts that ONLY Israel would know G-d's Name but interestingly it says the following:

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(from the Stone Edition Chumash): ...the Jews knew the various Names of G-d, so that the question cannot be undestood literally [the question: "What is His Name"]. Each of G-d's Names represents the way in which He reveals Himself through His behavior toward the World. ...thus Moses was saying that once the Jews accepted him as G-d's emissary, they would want to know which of G-d's attributes He would manifest in the course of redeeming them from Egypt.


What's the point of this? Two things: First, Moses would be believed because of his encounter with G-d and the miracles that will be displayed and second, G_D was going to deliver them and lead them to the land promised to the Patriarchs. This wasn't a carte blanche 'believe me because I had a vision from G-d". Moses had to prove himself before the Elders of Israel; something your Jeesus NEVER did. So comparison of Jeesus to Moses is moot.

In addition, as to the universal knowledge of G-d, it appears from the text the Jewish people were given this as their right. Jeesus didn't bring this. In fact, he brought about that which his followers would render Idolatry to the Torah's injunctions. So you have three strikes against you in trying to compare Jeesus to Moses and vice versa. Your posts posit that Moses "failed" in his attempts. He didn't fail. He gave the Jewish their heritage, their legacy and their birthright and although he never entered the land with them, his words, his teachings, his record of the relationship he had with both G-d and Israel will always be with the Jewish people no matter where they go. So Moses' teaching of the Torah of G-d and the Jewish People's study of this will ensure world wide knowledge of G-d. Remember, were it not for the Jews, Dougg, you would never have a copy or a translation of a book you misquote, misuse and malign.
THIS IS THE PROOF THAT YOU FAIL TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND.