Again Dougg, you seem to have some major, major misconceptions and downright fallacies concerning both Moses and your supposed "first of creation".. in short, in following Paul's doctrine that Jeesus is the "new improved Moses" and drawing this erroneous "compare and contrast" element, you fall into the trap like Paul did. I'll take your points one at a time (of course, I'll be dismissed by you for taking us all on a "rabbit trail", but I'll take that risk)

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Concerning the translation itself of Isaiah 42, the KJV and the LXX agree more with each other, than the text you use. So I am on solid ground there as well.



So since two mistranslations agree, they're the more authentic??? So you've actually read the text in the Greek and are a scholar in Greek? Gee, I thought the HEBREW predated the Greek and later Latin.. which would mean that its authority would be what is on "solid ground".. but I wouldn't know that, I suppose. After all, you are the authority on all things Torah..

Let's get real. Are you now purporting that you are actually a Hebrew scholar, with the ability to translate the Hebrew into Greek and then into English? Wow, this is insight since in your voluminous, disparaging posts you never posited your scholarly credentials and your alma mater. Furthermore, since it was told you by the scholars in this forum that the Septuagint was a translation of a translation and then the KJV translated that from Latin, you would have been able to deduce with your intellectual and academic "colleagues" that what you really have is a Translation (Modern English) from a Translation (Olde English-KJV) of a Translation (Latin-since the Septuagint was translated into the Latin Vulgate), of a Translation (Greek Seputagint) of a translation of the Original Hebrew. With it it comes the POLEMIC that the text is talking about Jeesus which is multipled THREE times (from Latin to Olde English to Modern English). Since you are a "scholar" you no doubt would have also explored the historical raison detre for the KJV of the Xian bible: that is the KJV was comissioned for Poltical/Doctrinal reasons--namely so the Protestants can have their own bible (the Tyndale one was authorative, but King James wanted a more "authorative" Text), and wanted to promulgate their belief certain aspects of Jeesus, including what I call the "Prophetic myths" concerning Jeesus.

In short, when it comes to YOUR fifth-handed knowledge of the Bible, when it comes to the HEBREW, you are NOT on "solid ground". The REAL scholars here who actually can read the Bible in the ORIGINAL language have debunked you AS IT RELATES TO G-D/TANAKH/JUDAISM/THE JEWISH PEOPLE. You keep trying to sell us your wares as authentic and you've been proven wrong AS IT RELATES TO G-D/TANAKH/JUDAISM/THE JEWISH PEOPLE time and time again. No matter how you try to promulgate the xtian belief as fact, it still comes out a fallacy in light of G-D/TANAKH/JUDAISM/THE JEWISH PEOPLE (I use this now, because you have since tried to denigrade Judaism and their scholars and still tried to sell us this nonsense about xianity's superiority over Judaism).


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Moses wasn't your messiah, but God sent him into Egypt to free the Children of Israel from bondage. Moses was sent for a purpose, to set the captives free, like in Isaiah 42:6, who Christians say refers to Jesus, who, according to the nt, went into hell and set those captives free.



First, you don't have a CLUE as to who Moses was or his "mission" or "purpose". Moses was given more than just the mission of "redeeming" Israel from Egypt. To Moses was given far, far more than anything anyone at any time in any age would ever receive. Your claim that Moses sole mission was to "Redeem" is extremely wrong. G-d alone was Israel's redeemer.. they/we don't sing "Who is like you Moses among the "messiahs" that are worshipped?" The Song of Moses clearly states that it was G-d who is the redeemer and G-d alone (and there is only One and not three, or eight or two hundred or a thousand little godlings running around). As such, Moses (and Aaron.. don't forget his part in the confrontation with Pharaoh) was to facillitate the deliverance of the Children of Israel but he was NOT their redeemer.. G-d was and is and always will be Israel's sole deliverer. But someone as "biblically astute" as you apparently postulate, should have seen this.

And here's the main point your Paul and later subsequent "students of the bible" miss: Moses spoke to G-d directly, G-d spoke DIRECTLY TO MOSES (literally mouth to mouth) and through Moses, Israel received the ETERNAL Torah, was made an ETERNAL People..( to YOUR consternation)and would have an ETERNAL physical/ethical inheritance and would be in time, have ETERNAL Peace to remain as Jews! The teaching G-d gave Moses is that we ALL can overcome the affects of tyranny and oppression and advocate for pure justice and equality for all people. And as for the "sin" factor.. everyone is responsible for their own "soul work". This is a paraphrasing from what G-d Himself revealed to Moses who would later reveal this to all of Israel. We don't need a mitras-knock-off to get 'salvation".

By contrast, there is NO proof that your Jeezer went into "Hell" (ala Mitras, Apollo, et al) to redeem anyone, other than what YOUR GT says. In addition, your religious cohorts took a JEWISH title "Messiah" and imbued it with pagan ideology and pagan veneration (thanks to Paul). So unless you have additional proof to substantiate your claim that Jeesus actually went to Hell to "redeem" people, it's all a JUST a myth.

But while we're on the Topic. If Jeesus really went to Hell as you say, to redeem people, then what's the purpose of Hell's "existence" since there would be no one in there left to redeem?? If Jeesus bankrupt hell and redeemed those there, then it no longer exists.. which means that xtians ever since have been teaching a lie, right? Xianity is never at a loss of polemic problems of its own making.


As for your grossly inaccurate retelling of the events chronicaled in both Exodus and later Deuteronomy: Moses did NOT merely intercede for the children of Israel on either the first or the second ascent upon Horev. The first 40 days was to receive the stone tablets and the minutia of the Tabernacle and the Offerings therein. G-d ceased communication about this upon the MIXED MULTITUDE"S creation of the golden calf (albeit Israel was still responsible even though less than ONE PERCENT of the population actually participated in the Golden Calf scenario). The text clearly indicates that it was this mixed multitude to instigated the plot (since they had feared Moses had died). You being a "hebrew scholar" should have come to this rendering. As a result, 3000 died (those who were responsible) out of about 650,000 (and this was the men not the women so close to a Million or more people existed).

Now get this: During the intermidiate 40 days, the people prayed and asked G-d for forgiveness, even though personally, they did not participate in the Golden Calf. Those that did, were already dead. Yet Israel knew that their relationship was severed by tolerating a no-god in their midst and made t'shuvah to G-d (notice, no blood letting, no "vicarious atonement").

In the beginning of the 40 day fast, Moses had stated that if G-d was going to destroy Israel, then let Moses himself be destroyed. G-d forbade this and it would do you well to read G-d's own words on the matter.. this complete dispells your assertion of a vicarious atonement and would bring this matter to a close.

The second ascent upon Horev was to receive additional teachings related to the Torah. Moses had to craft the second set of tablets himself and then upon completion, he was to ascend. However, Moses wanted PROOF that G-d had truly forgiven Israel.. NOT becasue Moses "interceded" as you say, but because Israel itself had spent 40 days in mourning and in tshuvah. The sign that Moses wanted was to behold G-d's "face". But G-d instead (and far more than Moses had asked for) G-d chose to reveal to Moses, G-d's own Nature: the 13 attributes of G-d's Nature/Mercy. This, in turn, was taught to Israel as PROOF that when there is true repentance and recommitment to the Torah, G-d WOULD be Merciful and within it, bring about the means of Return and Renewal.


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To point out the similitude between Moses and Jesus, Christianity is stepping over to the Lord's side (I am stating my opinion). Like Moses, Jesus did not give us a sermon about Cain (Sophiee). The nt says that Jesus is our mediator in heaven, ascending there, the heavenly mountain of God, the heavenly Zion, not the mountain that Moses climbed. But the stakes are higher, freedom not from physical bondage, as bad as that was for the Children of Israel, but from the bondage of the power of sin for the entire human race.


1. There is NO similarity between Moses and Jeesus. Jeesus was a vile, mean-tempered and vulgar caraciture created by Paul. In fact, the Jeesus in the various gospels (including the virolent John) sounds more like the venomous Paul than the humble Moses, so please, do NOT, I repeat do NOT, try to make comparisons between the two.. it's vulgar and grossly inaccurate. There are only DISsimiliarities between the True Prophet of Israel and the False Messiah that is Jeezer (if he existed at all). And ANY and ALL "similiarities" is a forced construct on the part of Paul and his co-horts.

But the question I posit as proof of Jeezer's horrible inaccurate comparison to Moses, is that if Moses was barred from the Promised Land for both calling the children of Israel "you rebels" and in striking the rock (he was to speak to the ROCK, not to the people, and in anger was going to strike them but struck the rock as subsitute, thereby disobeying G-d's direct command since He had already called the people Holy), then where does Jeesus get off calling the pharisees vile, putrid names?
And don't give me this authority garbage. Jeeus was not a pharisee and was not a rabbi. The Torah makes it VERY clear that the Jewish religious court has Divine Sanction and the qualifications for this appointed position were mandated by G-d; if Jeesus were G-d's "son" he would have known this and would have watched his mouth since speaking against them (since he was not ONE of them) could incur the death penalty as mandated by G-d Himself.

2. Moses' teaching from G-d was that all false prophets and violent malefactors are NOT to be listened to. Jeesus was not a prophet, was not anointed by the vial of spiced oil (a MANDATE in the Torah) as a "messiah", not acclaimed by the JEWISH sanhedrin, not in accordance to the Torah (in fact, he disregarded the laws that "his Father" set in motion which goes against the Fifth Commandment as well as the injunction in Deuteronomy that states that the Sanhedrin is the final arbiture of Jewish law.. and anyone who defies them could incur the death penalty).

3. jeeeus didn't deliver anyone. And as for the "stepping on the L-rd's side".. Give me a break!!!! So we're back to the "Perfidious Jew" line again! YOU NEVER miss an opportunity to degrade Judaism and I do NOT know why the Moderators have not called you on the carpet by now for this! Yes, we've seen how xians are on the "L-rd's" side. The death of 20 million Jews is proof positive of you all being on the L'rd's side. Spare us the aggrandization. Jeesus' death had NO affect on the human condition. In fact, becasue of him and the imperialism that ensued, humanity has gotten WORSE, not better. If Jeesus was the second adam as your Paul contends, humanity would have subsequently without the "stain of sin". Since it was not so, you cannot call him thus and if it is not this, then he is not redeemer and if he is not redeemer as proof in the current human condition, then your whole construct as it relates to the Torah/G-d/Judaism is a fallacy at best, Idolatry at worst.

4. You have NO idea what the Torah contains. Do you actually think that the 615 Mitzvot given BY G_D are just a means to keep Israel from going back to Egypt? Or more to the point, how does YOUR no-god redeem people when they still kill, still persecute and still seek converts who, in the words of your jeeser " more the sons of hell than you are"? Tell me how subjugating others and destroying cultures in the name of your precious jeesus is a redemption? Again, this was asked twice and you side-step the issue.. You love to issue challenges but refuse to answer the real litmus test questions. Until you answer these, you have no "solid ground" on which to stand.

5. There is no "heavenly Zion". At least not in a xtian construct. I am not even going to waste my time refuting that myth as greater people than I, including UriYosef and Sophiee have explained this to you, but you being the great Hebrew, Greek and now Latin scholar are truly a "teacher above teachers". Nonetheless, there is one issue I will take with your inane postulations: Moses was and IS the standard by which ALL prophets past, present and future are to be judged. PERIOD. And your jeezus was NOT a prophet, was not a leader and was NOT a student of Torah. To compare him to Moses is a disgusting, putrid, vile insult to not only the person of Moses (whom G-d stated was/is in charge of His entire Household) but also to the Torah (written and oral) that Moses received from G-d Himself and taught faithfully to the House of Israel. While Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land, G-d did allow him to see ALL of the Promised Land; land that Israel itself would not achieve until King David (about 450 years later!). IN ADDITION, G-d HIMSELF stated that there was no one like Moses and there would NEVER be another Moses as he achieved the Highest Level of Prophetic station that could EVER be acheieved. ANY and ALL similarity between Moses and Jeesus is YOUR GT's doing and is not in any way TRUTH because G-d Himself already told us the level of Moses' relationship to G-d. So while jeesus may have as you say 'climbed the heavenly mountain", he could never rise past Moses' stature. And this kind of "Moses vs Jeesus" religious battle royale compliments of Paul is sick, perverted and vile coming from a supposed "Pharisee" of Paul's "stature".. physical attributes aside.


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I don't recognize "yeshu" as being a legitimate name for Jesus. I am just going to say, Uri, that I am a Christian and will remain a Christian forever.



Who's trying to dissuade you?? WE"RE NOT here to make a convert of you, Dougg. But you sure as hades have spewed forth your hatred of anything that stands against the "imperviousness" and 'absoluteness" of the xtian dogma and its attempts to convert all people, including Jews to it. And you will never miss an opportunity to insult the moderators, villify the Jewish people, make horrible spurious insults against the Prophets (now most recently with Moses) and dengrade Judaism. Why are you here, Dougg? Sounds to me the more you protest about something the moderators aren't doing, the more it seems your aims are being thwarted, a Fruedian theological slip, perhaps?

If you're going to remain a xian forever, that's all well and good. No one is out to convert you or dissuade you. Judaism has never mandated that everyone or anyone be Jewish. They did insist on righteousness if you're truly going to follow the G-d of Israel (of which Jeesus is NOT part of.. sorry, that's just the facts). You would have a portion in the world to come as any righteous person, Jew or non-Jew would! In fact, on some level, you would be assured this portion.

However, what is your main purpose here but to prove Judaism wrong?? Why is it that YOUR religious dogma dicatates that Jews have to be wrong in order for YOU to be right??? Why is there this imperialism on the part of your "savior" that you have damn others to "bless" yourself?
Why the obsession with the Jews. This is a counter-missionary forum and we will counter the claim, not try to make converts. It apparently sticks in your throat that the Jews here are neither stupid, blind, deaf or obstinante. They know the Torah you and your co-horts try to pervert. Why is it that in your world, Jews can't exist and remain Jews? Why is it that in YOUR world, no one is allowed to present the truth AS IT RELATES TO JUDAISM. it was YOUR religion that made the point that JEeus was the JEwish messiah that the Jews "rejected". The onus was and will always be on xianity NOT Judaism. And even when Judaism and the moderators here have beyond any reasonable doubt, proven the points in the Torah that was given by G-d, you simply refuse to accept it. You can your savior without its supposed linkage to the jewish people.. but then that would unravel your whole aim, now wouldn't it?? I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU ARE HERE.





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Well, you had asked me past tense what had Jesus done regarding world peace, and I said "no". If the question were rephrased to the future I would have said "yes".



And we'll still be waiting. It's what now---2100 years? You can't have it both ways. If we afford Jeeus a second chance, then we should also afford it as well to every other false messiah from Judah of Galiee to "the Egyptian", to Bar Kochba to Sabbati Zvi to David Koresh to the myriads of others who were affected by this delusion they were they messiah. And let's not stop there. If Jeesus can have a second coming then we should afford it also to George Washington, Abraham Lincoln (after all he was "cut off" like the Jeezer was), John F. Kennedy (imagine what he would do in his second bid as President), Ronald Regan (maybe in this second coming he would wipe out the Taliban as well??). Do you see the lunacy of this? The Messiah has to get it right the first time. And while it's within your right to hold out for your Messianic Prince Charming.. in reality, you cannot seriously ask us to hold to the same "hold out".

So in conclusion, the more you give your rhetorical theological "assertions", the more you just simply don't get the message. And for the life of me I do not know why the Moderators have not as of yet called you on the carpet for your spurious attacks against not only their erudition, but also against Judaism and the teachers therein themselves. Time will tell.