**Note to moderators: I had to use a lot of quotes from the Torah in order to substantiate my assertions and claims concerning Israel and Moses. Iif this causes some issues with the rules and such, please edit as you see fit** thank you!


Dougg:

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You had better check again - the answer is zero of that generation coming out of Egypt who stood at Mt. Sinai above the age of 20 - with the exception of Caleb and Joshua. None of those who you "claim" became righteous by repentance and good works, made it into the promised land. They didn't make it because they didn't believe God,
they lacked faith, which in similitude, faith which we Christians say is the fundamental ingredient for entering the world to come. Down at the end of this post I provided the verses that substantiate my position.



Perhaps you should check your sources again. The first census generation's pronouncement by G-d had NOTHING to do with Original Sin or lack of "faith". The Hebrew word "Ya'emenu" used in the actual Torah passages you then quote from the KJV, denotes steadfastness and adhereance, not mere "faith" (But I'll leave the intricacies of the meaning of the root "emunah" to UriYosef, since he actually speaks Hebrew and is a scholar on this subject).
Israel DID repent for the sin of NOT taking the land. It had nothing to do with 'faith" as you say which is a xtian nonsequitur. G-d had given the command to enter the land and occupy it. They did not. That was a direct violation of a Divine Order. These spies rather than waiting until morning to present their case before Moses, spent the night further defaming both G-d and Moses by accusing them both of a conspiracy to deliver them from Egypt only to intend to either kill them outright or to have the other nations kill them and their children. They even began mobilization to return to Egypt! However, not all Israel was guilty of this by virtue of the fact that G-d addresed only these spies (who died instantly via a henious plague-- the commentary gives a grotesque account of what they died of) and then sentenced the first generation of WARRIORS to die in the wilderness. This has nothing to do with mere "belief" or "faith". For they had faith that G-d would rise with them when they repented of their maligning and then tried to take the Land. While they were truly sorry, it wasn't a matter of faith. But neither was it a "sin" that warranted eternal damnation, nor is it something that would damn them to a Hell. The MEN were to die in the wilderness, including Moses (the commentaries allude to this); yet Moses was not a sinner and Moses wasn't part and parcel of the offense. This has nothing to do with "salvation" or "Atonement"; something you're trying to force into this where it doesn't fit. It has everything to do with a G-d actually being in the midst of a People. As such, the Torah uses hypercritical language when the level of holiness such as the people had achieved his allowed to sink to such an abysmal degree.


By contrast, the women of either generation were NOT counted, nor were those men under the age of 20 and those men over the age of 60. Now, while they were not counted, nevertheless, when Moses calls all of Israel together to in essence prepare them for life in the Promised Land, the women ARE included, for Moses would state the following:

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1. And Moses called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that you may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5. I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to tell you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and went not up into the mount, saying,
Devarim 5 (Artscroll Edition Torah)


If only the second census generation were the only ones in existence, then it would appear that Moses is stretching history and his own credibility. To say "with us who are alive" and then say "you saw..." would be a falsehood because although they would have seen, they would not have understood and the Text makes it very clear that THESE people had addressed Moses. if NONE of the entire generation were present, then Moses should have said 'your fathers".. but Moses doesn't. He says "you". Believe what you want to believe but there is no escaping the fact that there were still those from the first generation alive at the time of Moses reconstituting the Coveneant with the new generation.

Now, I will take issue with your recounting:



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Numbers 26:64 kjv But among these there was not a man of them whom Moses and Aaron the priest numbered, when they numbered the children of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai.

26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.



This census is of the SECOND GENERATION, NOT THE FIRST. As such, any of the men that would have been alive during this period would be exempt from being counted as the census was for men 20 to 60. If you would have read the text your misquoted:

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B'midbar (Numbers) 26 1-2: "It was after the Plauge --HaShem spoke to Moses and Elazar son of Aaron the Kohen saying, "Take a census of the entire assembly of the Children of Israel, from 20 years of age and up, according to their father's houses, all who out to the legion of Israel." Moses and Elazar the Kohen spoke to them in the Plains of Moav, by the Jordan, near Jericho saying: "From 20 years of age and up, as Hashem had commanded Moses and the Children of Israel who were coming out of the Land of Egypt".


This is actually second census of the SECOND GENERATION. The need for this was, if you would have read the preceeding chapter is that after Israel's victory over the Kings Sichon and Og, the nations of Midian, Ammon and Moab conspire to destroy Israel. Moses in Devarim states that they stayed in Pe'or "a long time". It was during this time, that Balaam was hired pronounce a curse on Israel, but thwarted, he returned to his "bosses" and with the Midianite chieftans, hatched a plan to ensnare the Israelite men in idolatry. The Israelite men took the bait and before long Israel was sinking into idolatry. Moses and Aaron were thwarted in their attempts to curb this. A Plauge ensues which decimateds Israel; almost wiping out the entire tribe of Simeon. It would be Phineas' zealous actions which set into motion a "jarring back to reality" and his actions stops the plague.

It was for THIS reason that the second census of the SECOND Generation was taken. The survivors of the first wouldn't be counted because they were now exempted from serving due to their age and therefore not also permitted to enter the land. G-d did NOT kill off the first generation arbitrarily. Each died according to his lifespan, the young were not killed before the old and neither were the old beore the young. But this does NOT say anything about the women of the age as it was as Moses would say 'THE FIRST GENERATION OF WARRIORS":

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Devarim 2:14 ...The days that we traveled from Kadesh-Bernea until we crossed the Wadi zared were 38 years, UNTIL THE END OF THE ENTIRE GENERATION, THE MEN OF WAR, from the midst of the camp, as HaShem swore to them. Even the hand of HaShem was on them to confound them from the midst of the camp until their end. So it was that the MEN OF WAR finished dying from admist the PEOPLE. (emphasis mine)."


The pronouncement was not against the women as they were not "men of war" and they were not obligated to serve in the military. In addtion, more than once the women approached Moses (especially during the Pe'or debacle) and had also raised their concerns with respect to the Torah's edicts (think the Daughters of Zelophead). So apparently these women, who were part of the FIRST generation, made it into the Promised Land.

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It has to do with your erroneous claim that the Children of Israel were spared - not because Moses interceded, but "because Israel itself had spent 40 days in mourning and in tshuvah", as you say.



Agian, like all things, this is a misquote of what I SAID. I said that Israel was forgiven as a nation for the SIN OF THE GOLDEN CALF! Remember, the malefactors (the 3000) were already taken care of. As a Nation, Israel was still held accountable even though less than one percent of the population actually participated in the Golden Calf incident. G-d holds Israel to a higher standard. G-d DID forgive them and commanded Moses to lead them onward to the Promised Land (see Exodus 20)



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What I am showing Arikm, the similitude between the acts of Moses with those of Jesus. But Jesus was in the Christian view addressing a much larger picture, not of entering a land on this present earth, but the world to come.


Which is disgusting, sick and vile at best. Jeesus CANNOT be compared to Moses, PERIOD:

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Devarim 34:10: Never again has there arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom HaShem had known face to face, as evidenced by all the signs and wonders that HaShem sen him to perform in the Land of Egypt, against Pharoah an all his courtiers and all his land; and by all the strong hand and awesome power that Moses performed before the eyes of all of Israel"


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B'midbar 6-8: "Hear now My Words. If there shall be prophets among you, in a vision shall I, HaShem, make Myself known to him; in a dream shall I speak with him. Not so is my Servant Moses; in My ENTIRE House he is the Trusted One. Mouth to Mouth do I speak to him; in a clear vision and not in riddles, at the image of HaShem does he gaze; Why do you not fear to speak against My servant Moses?"


If Miriam and even the High Priest Aaron incurred the wrath of G-d for challenging the method in which G-d spoke with Moses, how much more so, you, Dougg? There was and never will be anyone like Moses, so your comparison about Jeesus is really an abomination in the light of what G-d had said about His own servant.

Now as for your claim that no one can be 'saved" under the 'law" (this has been addressed about ten times, but what's number 11??):

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Devarim 6: 23-25: "And He took us out of there (Egypt) in order to bring us, to give us the Land that He swore to our forefathers. HaShem commanded us to perform all of these decrees, to fear Hashem, our G-d, for our goo, all the days, to give us life, AS THIS VERY DAY. And it WILL BE RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR US, if we are careful to perform this entire commandment before HaShem our G-d as He commanded us."


Now before you jump into a Pauline 'all or nothing" mode concerning the Torah's observance, note that this is the collective Israel speaking to their subsequent generations. Each segment of the population always had and always will have a merit afforded to it according to the Torah and only Torah can be disseminated by the teachers G-d established, first with Moses and then with Moses' teaching throughout the subsquent generations (Sophiee has given this list on more than one occassion). To the point, Jews have NO need for your jeesus. Now, if you think you need this, that's fine and dandy. No one is asking you to give up your beliefs in Jeesus.. but please do NOT purport them on Judaism. And that is the crux of my contention with you, NOT that you are a xtian. You can have a relationship with G-d without Jeesus and you can have your religion without trying to have Judaism/Torah/the G-d of Israel give it license (which they cannot).


In addition:

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Melekim A 2:3: King David to his recently crowned son King Solomon: "Safeguard the charge of HaShem, your G-d, to walk in His ways, to observe His Decrees, Commandments, Ordinances and Testimonies, as written in the Torah of Moses, so that you will succeed in all that you do and where you turn."


And of course:

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Ve'yikrah (Leviticus) 18:4-5: "Carry out My Laws and safeguard My Decrees to follow them; I am HaShem, your G-d. You shall observe My Decrees and My Laws, which man shall carry out and by which he shall LIVE-- I am HaShem" (emphasis, mine)


And also:

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Devarim 4:1-1. Now therefore give heed, O Israel, to the statutes and to the judgments, which I teach you, to do them, that you may LIVE, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers gives you.
2. You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish nothing from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3. Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baal-Peor, to all the men who followed Baal-Peor; the Lord your God has destroyed them from among you.
4. But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day.
5. Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do so in the land where you go to take possession of it.
6. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, who, when they shall hear all these statutes, shall say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." (emphasis, mine)


And Moses ALSO says:

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Devarim 5: 29. You shall take care to do it therefore as the Lord your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
30. You shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess."


The Torah does promise life. And it does promise righteousness.

Now as for Israel's place. Yes, G-d exacts more punishment from Israel than other nations and for this reason:


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Devarim 7: 6. For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a special people to himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.
7. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples;
8. But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn to your fathers, has the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of slaves, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9. Know therefore that the Lord your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10. And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face."



G-d simply didn't abandon Israel because of the first generation of WARRIORS failed to take the land. The next generation did as per G-d's promise. This had nothing to do with 'faith' or "belief". Your King James mistranslates a lot of the Hebrew so right away there is bound to be problems from the get go. The issue is that the Text and Moses does NOT substantiate any of your claims about eternal damnation for "sin" or 'unbelief". In addition, NO comparisons can be made between your jeesus and Israel's teacher and Torah-giver, Moses. The promises are vouchsafed in this light with merit being afforded in the world to come. Realize, however, Dougg, that Torah law does apply there.. so your assertion at the beginning of your post that faith is the criteria of entry into the world to come is not borne out in Judaism.. either in the Torah/Tanakh or in the teachings of the sages. The World to Come is NOT heaven, nor is it governed by anything less than that which G-d gave to the Jewish people.