Thomas, feel free to supply quotes that support your supposition -- that will turn your jello into something a bit more substantial.

Halacha (Jewish law) doesn't have a problem with men having sex with women prior to marriage -- but it does assume that the sex is with the intention of either marriage or taking her as a concubine (a kind of marriage). Keep in mind that men can have multiple wives.

If the woman is not a virgin and she is not married and a man has sex with her (with her consent) there is no dowry to be paid -- however it is expected that he will marry her or take her as a concubine.

Let's go back and paste in a few of Dan's and my posts since you haven't done so. I like to be helpful.

Dan (5/29/07 6:54 pm)
Quote:
I have no doubt, of course, that Orthodox Jews have a lower premarital sex rate. When I was at Chabad, men weren't allowed to even shake hands with the women there. Under these conditions, sex becomes much less likely. . .Looking at the written law, I don't see anywhere where it clearly states not to have premarital sex. Even the Ask Moses site says that rabbis can't agree where in the law it's prohibited, just that it's prohibited somewhere.



Notice he said "pre-marital" (as did I). Nothing wrong with that as long as the intention to marry is there. The Torah says not to make prostitutes of women.

Dan (5/30/07 3:58 pm)
Quote:
I would also add that the written Torah is VERY specific about all sexual matters. . .The Torah goes through who and what a man can't have sex with, and then does the same for a woman, even though, it would have been reasonable to assume the rules are the same for both sexes. However, it is noticeably absent on premarital relations.


Hmm, pre-marital again (not sex with no intention of marriage).

Perhaps you misunderstood Torah, Dan and me given that it is so different from Xianity? So far the quotes from Dan line right up with Torah and the mitzvot. . .

Then there was my post of (6/3/07 4:26 pm) regarding Exodus 22:15
Quote:
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with Shemlke's original arguemnt about premarital sex -- since Judaism doesn't condem premarital sex per se (as do Southern evangelicals as Shmelke pointed out -- and this causes a higher rate of sexual teen activity).

Exodus 22:15-16 says that if a man has sex with a virgin and isn't engaged to her he must either pay the dowry and marry her (if it is acceptable to her and her father) -- or she doesn't want to marry her he must at least pay the dowry.

Keep in mind that "in those days" men could have multiple wives and / or concubines. Torah is saying what will happen "if" and the resultant consequences -- but there is no moral negativism here -- and that this is addressing seduction and not forceful rape.

Rape has a whole 'nother level of issues.

Note also if the girl becomes pregnant there is not negativism on the child. S/he (the child) is not a bastard. There is no such concept as "bastard" in Judaism.

So how does Exodus 22 impact in any way the fundamentalist Xian concept of "don't at all costs have sex before marriage or burn in mythical hell"? (Meanwhile all those kids are having sex)?

Not quite sure how the original poster thought Exodus 22 supported all those fundie Xian issues about sex. Because it doesn't. Sex is not evil. Not even with virgins.



I can continue if you like, but from the quotes (I see now why you didn't paste them) the jello doesn't appear to come from Dan or me.

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12