Just asking for as much information as possible on Lilith and also the Queen of Heaven. Also on the angel Ariel.
Thanks!
| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
messiahtruthhere |
Lilith |
Lead | |
|
Hi All,
Just asking for as much information as possible on Lilith and also the Queen of Heaven. Also on the angel Ariel. Thanks! |
|||
Rabbi Daniel |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
I guess then you've come to the wrong place.
|
|||
messiahtruthhere |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
How is this the wrong place? The Queen of Heaven is mentioned in the Torah. I am asking for further info from other writings as I am not familiar with the Talmud. Please direct me to the right forum if that is what you mean.
|
|||
Rabbi Daniel |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
Lilith is a name of an impure force.
It essentially has no relevance to the day to day, year to year, decade to decade life of an observant Jew. And being that it is a mystical, impure concept, why bother? If you have time to study first I'd recommend the Hebrew Aleph-bet. Then move on to the Torah in it's original language. Then her commentaries. Then there's Mishnah, Mussar, Halachah, Talmud... Not sure what was translated into the "Queen of Heaven." Ariel, the name means "lion of G-d." The angel is associated with missions of peace. |
|||
Sophiee1 |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
The "queen of heaven" referred to in Jeremiah (BTW scrip-tural references really help -- as does an understanding of WHAT you want to know) was a name for the pagan goddess Is-is.
Is-is had a star in Egyptian lore as well. She was an Egyptian pagan goddess and Jeremiah warns that some Jews are turning to paganism. Interesting enough some Xians call Mary (the supposed mother of Jsus) the queen of heavens. Yet another paganism that made its way into Xianity. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12 |
|||
ZeevMichael |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
I had always thought that Midrash taught that Lilith was the first wife of Adam - is this not so?
|
|||
Sophiee1 |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
Midrash being the operative word in your sentence.
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12 |
|||
Rabbi Daniel |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
In other words, since it is a name for an impure force, what does the Midrash mean to say they were married?
What does it mean to be a wife? What does it mean to be an impure force? Whaddaya say we learn our aleph-bet first and leave things we don't understand for people who understand them. If and when we get to that level, great! Chava was Adam's first wife. They had Kayin, Hevel, Sheis and many other children together. All 100% true and we all know exactly what it means. |
|||
ZeevMichael |
Re: Lilith | ||
|
Wow, just brought it up as part of the conversation. Is this the reception an observant Jew can expect when he comes to learn how to counter missionary arguments? "Learn our Aleph-Bet"?
Do you realize that idolaters and atheists use this story from Midrash against us? Do you realize they say we're grasping for straws to bury an apparent contradiction in B'reisheet? Surely you must - this board has some high-quality educational material. R. Daniel, I'm in your camp. Hold your fire! |
|||
Sophiee1 |
A bit more depth | ||
Quote: G-d created HIM male and female He created THEM. Next chapter. Quote: Hmmm. In Bereshit 1 G-d creates "THEM" man and woman. Then in Bereshit 2 G-d creates man and breathes life into him and then creates woman from him. These are not the same beings. Adam means "earth" or "dirt". The word translated as ground is adamah (see the "adam" in it?). Both adam and adamah relate to red and to blood (dam). Nahmanides (Ramban) who lived from 1194 - c. 1270 discussed Genesis using terms that we think of today as being evolution. Ramban first discuses Genesis 1:1. What G-d brought forth thereis something called hailei, what medieval scientists thought of as the raw matter whence all life emerges. Quote: Genesis 1:1 reports G-ds root decision to create something out of nothing; after that, life developed however the scientists describe it. Genesis 1:2, the very next line, describes primeval earth as tohu vavohu. Tohu, says Ramban, means astonishment, and vavohu means because there was something there astonishment, that is, because out of nothing came something but not yet anything in particular. G-d could have created everything in all its detail with a snap of the divine fingers, but G-d didnt, and therein lies the significance of Genesis 1:1. G-d created the possibility of being, an act that astonishes (Genesis 1:2) because aboriginal emptiness had become primal matter, ready to be shaped and reshaped ad infinitum. So here you have a VERY Orthodox Jew who is one of the most respected of our sages speaking in terms of evolution who lived in the 12th century of the common era. I suggest you read The Age of the Universe written by UriYosef's friend, Gerald Schroeder. Gerald Shroeder's book is definitely worth reading. "Genesis and the Big Bang." Aish also had an article on this subject entitled "Did Adam Have Parents?" It isn't on their website any more but I found it via "The Wayback Machine" which caches the internet. Here is the link Quote: (snip) Follow the link to read the rest of the article. And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12 |
|||
Rabbi Daniel |
Re: A bit more depth | ||
|
ZeevMichael,
What fire?!? The conversation started out that we weren't going to discuss matters over our heads and it continued that way. If you're a religious Jew seeking anti-missionary information on some "contradiction" used "against us" than say so. There was no such intimation in the original question nor in yours. This is the Ask-the-Rabbi thread. Not the anti-missionary education thread. I answer the questions as they appear in the posts. Sometimes I don't answer a question... as it appears in the post. Since you brought it up, though, if a missionary does say the Midrash contradicts the Torah, show him this thread and he'll see that it doesn't. Sophie, The Adam in Gen. 1 is absolutely the Adam in Gen 2. Gen. 1 is a general overview and Gen. 2 is more detailed. However much time did or didn't pass between the two stages described in the commentaries does not change the fact that it is about the same Adam. Also, while it's true that elements of evolution are not in conflict with Torah thought, to say that after G-d created matter, things then went the way the scientists say is giving them WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much credit. After G-d created *something* He created/shaped everything in it's detail on their respective days. Science may or may not have tapped into how parts of that process were manifest. For example, evolutionists say fish evolved into fowl. That does coincide with the text which says G-d created the fish before creating the fowl. Evolutionists will also say monkey evolved into man. That's not true. Certainly worth mentioning is also the fact that not all scientists see credibility in evolution. Statements portraying it to be a given are misleading. For example... |
|||
ZeevMichael |
Re: A bit more depth | ||
|
R. Daniel,
I understand your point. Certainly you had no way of knowing who I am, or why I am here. I simply brought up the point concerning Lilith in the Midrash because the original poster vaguely expressed that they were "looking for information" on Lilith (and others). My purpose was to add a piece of information germane to references found in Jewish teaching/literature that had not been mentioned, and to have your confirmation that indeed I had correctly recalled such a reference. No agenda, no implication - just a contribution. I'm sure there's no need to discuss this further. Suffice it to say that we have now been introduced, and I look forward to your teaching! Kol Tuv, Zeev |
|||
tyolilums |
|||
|
If possible, I'd like to settle the one mention of Lilith in the bible. Is that the best translation? It kind of irks me when people always bringing her
up and I don't know what to say about the verse in Isaiah. Is screech owl the best translation? The Jewish bibles have Lilith.
|
|||
