On February 3, 2006, while doing some research, I stumbled across Marks initial (8/1/05 7:57 am) post on the Righteousness thread, and it recalled to me some questions of my own:
Hi,
As I've mentioned several times before here, the basic difference between Jewish and Christian theology (at least on this board) doesn't seem to be over the identity of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord and Savior, but rather the question of whether man even needs a savior.
In mid-November or mid-December 2005, I was going through a really dark time in terms of my relations with some persons on this board, and I wound up entertaining that same question. On the one hand, I was fully prepared to answer, No, humanity does not need a savior.
On the other hand, behold the world as God made it: Bigotry can occur. There is no way to absolutely keep it from occurring. Moreover, bigots can come into positions of power; there is absolutely no way to keep them from doing so. And once they do, behold your Pol Pots, your Bosnias, your Rwandas, your Shoas. And this is just one example of one kind of situation of this ilk.
Yes, I concluded, humanity does need a savior. We get ourselves sometimes into situations from which there is absolutely no rescue, save divine intervention. And sometimes it does occur.
But who is this Savior? And what does salvation mean?
These arent concepts Christians made up. They pre-date Christianity. Accordingly, no reference to any Christian text, concept or person is needed, to answer those questions. TaNaKh includes in a single book! 119 uses of the term:
Psalms 003:700_____Psalms 044:300_____Psalms 086:200
Psalms 003:800_____Psalms 044:600_____Psalms 086:160
Psalms 006:400_____Psalms 044:700_____Psalms 088:100
Psalms 007:100_____Psalms 050:230_____Psalms 089:260
Psalms 007:100_____Psalms 051:120_____Psalms 091:160
Psalms 009:140_____Psalms 051:140_____Psalms 095:100
Psalms 013:500_____Psalms 053:600_____Psalms 096:200
Psalms 014:700_____Psalms 054:100_____Psalms 098:200
Psalms 017:700_____Psalms 055:160_____Psalms 098:300
Psalms 018:200_____Psalms 057:300_____Psalms 106:400
Psalms 018:300_____Psalms 059:200_____Psalms 106:800
Psalms 018:270_____Psalms 060:500_____Psalms 106:100
Psalms 018:350_____Psalms 062:100_____Psalms 106:210
Psalms 018:410_____Psalms 062:200_____Psalms 106:470
Psalms 018:460_____Psalms 062:600_____Psalms 107:130
Psalms 020:500_____Psalms 062:700_____Psalms 107:190
Psalms 020:600_____Psalms 065:500_____Psalms 108:600
Psalms 020:600_____Psalms 067:200_____Psalms 109:260
Psalms 020:900_____Psalms 068:190_____Psalms 109:310
Psalms 021:100_____Psalms 068:200_____Psalms 116:130
Psalms 021:500_____Psalms 069:100_____Psalms 118:200
Psalms 022:210_____Psalms 069:130_____Psalms 118:500
Psalms 024:500_____Psalms 069:230_____Psalms 118:140
Psalms 025:500_____Psalms 069:350_____Psalms 118:150
Psalms 027:100_____Psalms 070:400_____Psalms 118:210
Psalms 027:900_____Psalms 071:200_____Psalms 119:410
Psalms 028:800_____Psalms 071:300_____Psalms 119:810
Psalms 028:900_____Psalms 071:150_____Psalms 119:940
Psalms 031:200_____Psalms 072:400_____Psalms 119:123
Psalms 031:160_____Psalms 072:130_____Psalms 119:146
Psalms 033:160_____Psalms 074:120_____Psalms 119:155
Psalms 034:600_____Psalms 076:900_____Psalms 119:166
Psalms 034:180_____Psalms 078:220_____Psalms 119:174
Psalms 035:300_____Psalms 079:900_____Psalms 132:160
Psalms 035:900_____Psalms 080:200_____Psalms 138:700
Psalms 037:390_____Psalms 080:300_____Psalms 140:700
Psalms 037:400_____Psalms 080:700_____Psalms 144:100
Psalms 038:220_____Psalms 085:400_____Psalms 145:190
Psalms 040:100_____Psalms 085:700_____Psalms 149:400
Psalms 040:160_____Psalms 085:900_____
So, who is this Savior? And what does salvation mean? The missionaries dont own these terms; it is good for Jews to enter such discussions, prepared with answers of their own.
I invite discussion and answers. Please reference ONLY TaNaKh, Talmud and the Sages.
P.
Hi,
As I've mentioned several times before here, the basic difference between Jewish and Christian theology (at least on this board) doesn't seem to be over the identity of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord and Savior, but rather the question of whether man even needs a savior.
In mid-November or mid-December 2005, I was going through a really dark time in terms of my relations with some persons on this board, and I wound up entertaining that same question. On the one hand, I was fully prepared to answer, No, humanity does not need a savior.
On the other hand, behold the world as God made it: Bigotry can occur. There is no way to absolutely keep it from occurring. Moreover, bigots can come into positions of power; there is absolutely no way to keep them from doing so. And once they do, behold your Pol Pots, your Bosnias, your Rwandas, your Shoas. And this is just one example of one kind of situation of this ilk.
Yes, I concluded, humanity does need a savior. We get ourselves sometimes into situations from which there is absolutely no rescue, save divine intervention. And sometimes it does occur.
But who is this Savior? And what does salvation mean?
These arent concepts Christians made up. They pre-date Christianity. Accordingly, no reference to any Christian text, concept or person is needed, to answer those questions. TaNaKh includes in a single book! 119 uses of the term:
Psalms 003:700_____Psalms 044:300_____Psalms 086:200
Psalms 003:800_____Psalms 044:600_____Psalms 086:160
Psalms 006:400_____Psalms 044:700_____Psalms 088:100
Psalms 007:100_____Psalms 050:230_____Psalms 089:260
Psalms 007:100_____Psalms 051:120_____Psalms 091:160
Psalms 009:140_____Psalms 051:140_____Psalms 095:100
Psalms 013:500_____Psalms 053:600_____Psalms 096:200
Psalms 014:700_____Psalms 054:100_____Psalms 098:200
Psalms 017:700_____Psalms 055:160_____Psalms 098:300
Psalms 018:200_____Psalms 057:300_____Psalms 106:400
Psalms 018:300_____Psalms 059:200_____Psalms 106:800
Psalms 018:270_____Psalms 060:500_____Psalms 106:100
Psalms 018:350_____Psalms 062:100_____Psalms 106:210
Psalms 018:410_____Psalms 062:200_____Psalms 106:470
Psalms 018:460_____Psalms 062:600_____Psalms 107:130
Psalms 020:500_____Psalms 062:700_____Psalms 107:190
Psalms 020:600_____Psalms 065:500_____Psalms 108:600
Psalms 020:600_____Psalms 067:200_____Psalms 109:260
Psalms 020:900_____Psalms 068:190_____Psalms 109:310
Psalms 021:100_____Psalms 068:200_____Psalms 116:130
Psalms 021:500_____Psalms 069:100_____Psalms 118:200
Psalms 022:210_____Psalms 069:130_____Psalms 118:500
Psalms 024:500_____Psalms 069:230_____Psalms 118:140
Psalms 025:500_____Psalms 069:350_____Psalms 118:150
Psalms 027:100_____Psalms 070:400_____Psalms 118:210
Psalms 027:900_____Psalms 071:200_____Psalms 119:410
Psalms 028:800_____Psalms 071:300_____Psalms 119:810
Psalms 028:900_____Psalms 071:150_____Psalms 119:940
Psalms 031:200_____Psalms 072:400_____Psalms 119:123
Psalms 031:160_____Psalms 072:130_____Psalms 119:146
Psalms 033:160_____Psalms 074:120_____Psalms 119:155
Psalms 034:600_____Psalms 076:900_____Psalms 119:166
Psalms 034:180_____Psalms 078:220_____Psalms 119:174
Psalms 035:300_____Psalms 079:900_____Psalms 132:160
Psalms 035:900_____Psalms 080:200_____Psalms 138:700
Psalms 037:390_____Psalms 080:300_____Psalms 140:700
Psalms 037:400_____Psalms 080:700_____Psalms 144:100
Psalms 038:220_____Psalms 085:400_____Psalms 145:190
Psalms 040:100_____Psalms 085:700_____Psalms 149:400
Psalms 040:160_____Psalms 085:900_____
So, who is this Savior? And what does salvation mean? The missionaries dont own these terms; it is good for Jews to enter such discussions, prepared with answers of their own.
I invite discussion and answers. Please reference ONLY TaNaKh, Talmud and the Sages.
P.
