The Rambam's "Thirteen Principles"

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ProfBenTziyyon

The Rambam's "Thirteen Principles"

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Posts: 147

(03/26/08 12:34:02)

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It seems to me that the Rambam's שְׁלֹשָׁה עָשָׂר עִקָּרִים or "Thirteen Principles" would make a wonderful way to kick off this new forum:

א. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא בּוֹרֵא וּמַנְהִיג לְכָל הַבְּרוּאִים, וְהוּא לְבַדּוֹ עָשָׂה עוֹשֶׂה וְיַעֲשֶׂה לְכָל הַמַּעֲשִׂים׃

1. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - is the Creator and the Guide of everything that has been created, and that He alone made, makes and will make all things.

ב. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא יָחִיד וְאֵין יְחִידוּת כָּמוֹהוּ בּשׁוּם פָּנִים, וְהוּא לְבַדּוֹ אֱלֹהֵינוּ - הָיָה, הוֹוֶה, וְיִהְיֶה׃

2. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - is a "Oneness" and that there is no other "Oneness" of any kind like Him, and that He alone is our God who was, who is, and who will be.

ג. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ אֵינוֹ גוּף וְלֹא יַשִּׂיגוּהוּ מַשִּׂיגֵי הַגּוּף, וְאֵין לוֹ שׁוּם דִּמְיוֹן כְּלָל׃

3. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - is not a body and that He is not subject to any physical occurrences, and that He does not have any form at all.

ד. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא רִאשׁוֹן וְהוּא אַחֲרוֹן׃

4. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - is the First and the Last.

ה. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ לוֹ לְבַדּוֹ רָאוּי לְהִתְפַּלֵּל, וְאֵין רָאוּי לְהִתְפַּלֵּל לְזוּלָתוֹ׃

5. I firmly believe that it is only proper to pray to the Creator - may His Name be blessed - alone, and that it is not proper to pray to anyone/anything else.

ו. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁכָּל דִּבְרֵי נְבִיאִים אֱמֶת׃

6. I firmly believe that all the prophets' words are true.

ז. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁנְּבוּאַת מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ עָלָיו הַשָּׁלוֹם הָיְתָה אֲמִתִּית, וְשֶׁהוּא הָיָה אָב לַנְּבִיאִים לַקּוֹדְמִים לְפָנָיו וְלַבָּאִים אַחֲרָיו׃

7. I firmly believe that the prophecy of our teacher Mosheh (may he rest in peace) was true, and that he was the chief of all the prophets - both of those who preceded him and of those who followed him.

ח. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁכָּל הַתּוֹרָה הַמְּצוּיָה עַתָּה בְּיָדֵינוּ הִיא הַנְּתוּנָה למֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ עָלָיו הַשָּׁלוֹם׃

8. I firmly believe that the entire Torah that is now in our possession is the same as that which was given to our teacher Mosheh (may he rest in peace).

ט. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁזֹּאת הַתּוֹרָה לֹא תְהֵא מֻחְלֶפֶת וְלֹא תְהֵא תּוֹרָה אֲחֶרֶת מֵאֵת הַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ׃

9. I firmly believe that this Torah will never be changed and that there will never be any other Torah from the Creator - may His Name be blessed.

י. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ יוֹדֵעַ כָּל מַעֲשֵׂה בְנֵי אָדָם וְכָל מַחְשְׁבוֹתָם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "הַיֹּצֵר יַחַד לִבָּם הַמֵּבִין אֶל כָּל מַעֲשֵׂיהֶם"׃

10. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - knows all a human being's deeds and all of his thoughts, as it is written: "It is He that forms their hearts together and understands all their deeds" (T'hillim 33:15).

יא. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ גּוֹמֵל טוֹב לְשׁוֹמְרֵי מִצְוֹתָיו וּמַעֲנִישׁ לְעוֹבְרֵי מִצְוֹתָיו׃

11. I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - rewards those who keep His mitzvot and punishes those who violate His mitzvot.

יב. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה בְּבִיאַת הַמָּשִׁיחַ, וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיִתְמַהְמֵהַּ עִם כָּל זֶה אַחֲכֶּה לּוֹ בְּכָל יוֹם שֶׁיָּבוֹא׃

12. I firmly believe in the coming of the Mashiyah and although he is delayed, even so I will still anticipate his arrival each and every day.

יג. אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁתִּהְיֶה תְּחִיַּת הַמֵּתִים בְּעֵת שֶׁיַּעֲלֶה רָצוֹן מֵאֵת הַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ וְיִתְעֲלֶּה זִכְרוֹ לָעַד וּלְנֵצַח נְצָחִים׃

13. I firmly believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead at such a time that will please the Creator - may His Name be blessed and may His memory be exalted for ever and to all eternity!

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 04/25/08 02:41:39. Edited 3 times.

Sophiee1

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Posts: 10209

(03/26/08 16:22:23)

Moderator

Aish has a wonderful series of articles on the 13 Principles

The first article is G-d as the Creator

Written by Rabbi Mordechai Blumenfeld

Based on a series of lectures by Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg, of blessed memory.

INTRODUCTION

It is generally accepted that in order for a particular belief system to be called a religion, it must have at least three components:

1. Recognition of a Divine Being that is to be worshipped. 2. Instructions as to how He is to be worshipped. 3. Reward and punishment for carrying out or failing to carry out His instructions.

A system of norms may exist without these, but not a religion.

The Rambam's 13 Principles are an elaboration of these three points as they are realized in Judaism. Of the 13, there are five principles concerning the reality of the Creator, four concerning His Torah, and four concerning reward and punishment. Since these general concepts of the existence of the Creator, of instructions from the Creator, and of reward and punishment are common to all religions, it is the details of these concepts that establish the uniqueness of Judaism.

The Rambam's 13 Principles are unique as those tenets which one must be aware of and accept in order to be considered a practicing Jew. According to the Rambam, their acceptance defines the minimum requirement necessary for one to relate to the Almighty and His Torah as a member of the People of Israel.

And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 150

(03/26/08 17:27:44)

Thank you for that Sophie, but the whole reason why I saw fit to kick this No'ahite forum off with the Rambam's שְׁלֹשָׁה עָשָׂר עִקָּרִים is that they are also mandatory for a בֶּן-נֹחַ to accept too.

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 03/28/08 03:52:38. Edited 2 times.

nic

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Posts: 231

(03/27/08 04:35:48)

It might be worth to point out that the RAMBAM also gives some explanation to each point, as can be found here, including a reference to the Oral Law under "Principle VIII":
And similarly the explanation of the Torah was also received from God and this is what we use today to know the appearance and structure of the sukka and the lulav and the shofar, tzitzis, tefillin and their usage.

And maybe someone would like to elaborate on the concept of Emunat Chachamim - faith in the sages. It is often challenged and, IMO, essential as well.

It must have been you that G-d had in mind, when He created the universe.

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 156

(03/27/08 09:32:04)

nic wrote:
It might be worth to point out that the RAMBAM also gives some explanation to each point, as can be found here.....

Quite so, nic; but remember this forum is directed specifically at בְּנֵי-נֹח b'nei-no'ah... "sons of No'ah" (i.e. gentiles) and not at Jews, so we must be gentle with them and take things one step at a time. I think that the Thirteen Ikkarim ("Principles") by themselves are plenty to assimilate at one time without burdening newcomers by adding the explanations at this stage - remember how simply Hillel the Great put it for the would-be convert who wanted to learn the whole Torah in the time that he could stand on one leg: דַּעֲלָךְ סַנֵי לְחַבְרָךְ לָא תַעֲבִיד: זוֹ הִיא כָל הַתּוֹרָה כֻלָּה וְאֵדָּךְ פֵּרוּשָׁה הוּא - זִיל גְּמוֹר "The whole of the Torah is summarised in the one statement 'Do not do to your fellow anything that is hateful to you' - everything else is just explanation; now go and learn!" (Babylonian Talmud, Treatise Shabbat, folio 31a).

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon 03/28/08 03:54:40. Edited 4 times.

Douggg

a light unto the nations or a sign of the times?5

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Posts: 2460

(04/04/08 04:37:32)

New forum for a new religion which came from the Buddahist - no wait a minute that's not right - from the Hindu's - no that's not right either - from the Muslims - no that's not right. hmmm........let's see. Oh here is a link http://www.noachspace.com/ . Appears to be a Jewish guy in that video. That's a hint. Alright! Now I know - from Judaism. Noahidism = Judaism lite

. Judaism for the goyim.

Judaism doesn't proselytize.........but Judaism lite? uh, let's take a look at the list of speakers at the noahidenations world conference... there may be a loop hole. Rabbi Tovia Singer, Rabbi Chaim Richman... and a bunch of other rabbi's.

http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=88888890&id=88888901&Itemid=88888892

From that same site, Tovia Singer.........."At only 41 years old, he has managed to become the top counter-missionary in the world",......hmmm, obviously no biased there in pushing Noahidism. I will say from the picture Tovia does have an attractive assistant. Tovia appears to be looking over the luncheon menu....

..for the conference. At least he has his priorities straight.

http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=458&Itemid=88888892

Also on that list...."Rabbi Yoel David Bakst is a teaching rabbi and scholar of the Kabbalah...." Yes, I can see why the Noahides will need Kabbalah. Makes sense. Every new religion, needs some mysticism, I guess.

Seems to me that the noahides are under the authority of the Sanhedrin?

UriYosef

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Posts: 1261

(04/04/08 11:22:04)

Director of Education

Doug -

Just remember one thing. I would estimate that at least 99% of today's (declared) Noahides are former Christians (100% of the Noahides I know in person, i.e., face-to-face, are former Christians). Perhaps they discovered something that you have not yet found. Food for thought.

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

Douggg

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Posts: 2463

(04/04/08 12:13:58)

Hi Uri, I don't have any disagreement with your numbers and that they are former Christians. It's in our bible too.

I have been following this Noahide movement, and I was actually wondering where I was going to post my observations - but now you have a special Noahide forum, so that I won't be cluttering up the General Judaism forum. Well, mostly I will just be reading.

Yes, I saw a video, at one of their Noahide's sites of them swearing in before a panel of Jewish Rabbi's. Sign of the times to me.

UriYosef

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Posts: 1262

(04/04/08 12:26:20)

Director of Education

Douggg wrote:
I have been following this Noahide movement, and I was actually wondering where I was going to post my observations - but now you have a special Noahide forum, so that I won't be cluttering up the General Judaism forum. Well, mostly I will just be reading.

Yes, I saw a video, at one of their Noahide's sites of them swearing in before a panel of Jewish Rabbi's. Sign of the times to me.

Doug, please take note that this forum was established primarily for discussing issues relevant to Bnei Noach, and it will not be turned into a soap-box for posting your "observations".

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

Last Edited By: UriYosef 04/04/08 12:32:27. Edited 1 times.

Douggg

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Posts: 2464

(04/04/08 12:32:14)

Hi Uri, Doug, please take note that this forum was established primarily for discussing issues relevant to Bnei Noach, and it will not be turned into a soap-box for posting your "observations".

Right, that's why I said I would be mostly just reading. This is my last post in this forum for a while.

Netanel

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Posts: 903

(04/04/08 12:32:31)

Along with this forum being for the purpose of discussing issues relevent to Bnei Noach, this thread (The Rambam's Thirteen Principles) is all the more inappropriate for Christian end-times "observations".

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 258

(04/05/08 14:47:56)

Douggg wrote:
New forum for a new religion which came from the Buddahist - no wait a minute that's not right - from the Hindu's - no that's not right either - from the Muslims - no that's not right. hmmm........let's see. Oh here is a link http://www.noachspace.com [hyperlink removed]... Appears to be a Jewish guy in that video. That's a hint. Alright! Now I know - from Judaism. Noahidism = Judaism lite. Judaism for the goyim.

Lay off the sarcasm, Doug. It's offensive and you aren't even very good at it. If you only come here to be offensive I think it's high time you were shown the door, preferably with someone's boot firmly applied to the seat of your pants. And as for you sneering about a "new religion", you need to read the first paragraph of chapter 9 of Hilchot M'lachim in the Rambam's Mishneh Torah ...

עַל שִׁשָּׁה דְבָרִים נִצְטַוָּה אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן
עַל עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה -
וְעַל בִּרְכַּת הַשֵּׁם -
וְעַל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים -
וְעַל גִּלּוּי עֲרָיוֹת -
וְעַל הַגֶּזֶל -
וְעַל הַדִּינִים -
אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁכֻּלָּן הֵן קַבָּלָה בְיָדֵינוּ מִמֹּשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ, וְהַדַּעַת נוֹטָה לָהֶן, מִכְּלַל דִּבְרֵי תוֹרָה יֵרָאֶה, שֶׁעַל אֵלּוּ נִצְטַוָּה. הוֹסִיף לְנֹחַ אֵבֶר מִן הֶחָי, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר "אַךְ בָּשָׂר בְּנַפְשׁוֹ דָמוֹ לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ" (בראשית ט' ד'); נִמְצְאוּ שֶׁבַע מִצְו‍ֹת׃
Primitive Adam was commanded about six things...
(1) against idolatry,
(2) against cursing God's Name,
(3) against murder,
(4) against incest and adultery,
(5) against robbery, and
(6) about laws and courts of justice.
Even though we have received all these laws from our teacher Mosheh, and they all seem natural to the intellect, nevertheless it appears from the text of the Torah that he [the Adam] was actually commanded about them. Then God added one more commandment for No'ah, namely the prohibition against eating flesh cut from the body of any animal while it is still alive, as it is written, "But you must not eat flesh with the life (that is, the blood) still in it" (B'reshit 9:4) - making a total of Seven Commandments.

Moreover the Rambam continues to refer to בְּנֵי נֹחַ b'nei no'ah ("descendants of No'ah") throughout the remainder of chapter 9 and for the whole of chapter 10. A "new religion" is it, Doug? Well maybe if you consider AT LEAST 800 years old to be "new".

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

Rabbi Daniel

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Posts: 2234

(04/05/08 18:42:00)

Moderator

If you ask me, and no one has, which is why G-d gave me a big keyboard, I wasn't in on the board meeting which created the Noachide forum but I imagined it was a place for Noahides to come and ask questions. The intro says for discussions regarding them. Who'se supposed to come talk about them and their topics if not them? And if it's not them who needs it?

If this were so, than that would mean posts with little room in their mouths for yet another foot be dumped and, l'havdil, even well meaning posts from those who've decided what Noahides should know should also be...respectfully dumped.

Either its a place for them, and them alone, at least a majority, or its a mess, as is already the case.

If someone wants to argue with a noahide, go to a noahide website.

If Messiah Truths intention was to teach, then get someone qualified to teach.
If it's to give them a place for authoratative information or direction, than they should be leading. Not absent.

Could be I'm too accustomed to my relatively tight knit ASk-THE-RABBI world and not the forums. But as I described in my opening lines, based on the topic/audience, this seems to be the effective way to run it.

If they don't respond than so be it. We are here for them. They are not here for us.
Everyone else has plenty of places to hear themselves speak and Moderators don't need the extra load.

My thoughts.

Yeahs or nays?

UriYosef

[-]

Posts: 1267

(04/05/08 23:19:18)

Director of Education

Rabbi Daniel wrote:
If you ask me, and no one has, which is why G-d gave me a big keyboard, I wasn't in on the board meeting which created the Noachide forum but I imagined it was a place for Noahides to come and ask questions. The intro says for discussions regarding them. Who'se supposed to come talk about them and their topics if not them? And if it's not them who needs it?

Yeahs or nays?

We once had a forum for Noahides, but it disappeared because the activity in it stopped. We had a well-respected Noahide leader, Terry Lanham, leading the discussions and teaching. His group's web-site is still up, though it shows March 2002 as the last date of activity.

I decided to revive this forum and we now have a Ben Noah as Moderator - pensteel. He informed me that he will be busy for the next couple of week, after which he will get more Bnei Noah to participate here. In the meantime, I think the lead-off post by ProfBenTziyyon was a good "ice-breaker".

We will not tolerate any attempts by Christians or other detractors to get on their soap-boxes and "do their thing" here. I released Doug's sarcastic post to show an example of the kind of drivel that will not be allowed here.

So, let's give this forum a reasonable amount of time to develop once more participants start to contribute to it.

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

vikkilyn

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Posts: 79

(04/06/08 00:09:17)

I've been working some long hours and haven't had time to post much (not to mention a fight or two with yuku). I have some questions when I get a chance to put them up.

Thanks Uri for the forum, and thank you ProfBenTziyyon for posting the Rambam's "Thirteen Principles".

As for Dougg's post, I agree with Netanel that it didn't belong here with the Thirteen Principles". However, I did find something of value in it. The link he posted in order to poke fun at it turned out to be a lovely site. www.noachspace.com Reb Moshe's main webpage from which it branches also seems to be a lovely site (www.Ilovetorah.com). As a woman I took particular interest in the MrsIlovetorah blog, a diary of sorts by his wife, although I only had time for a passing glance and save it to my bookmarks.

Hope to write more when I have some time.

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 262

(04/06/08 04:57:49)

UriYosef wrote:

.....I released Doug's sarcastic post to show an example of the kind of drivel that will not be allowed here.

Isn't that something of a contradicto in terminis?

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

UriYosef

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Posts: 1270

(04/06/08 20:37:34)

Director of Education

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

UriYosef wrote:

.....I released Doug's sarcastic post to show an example of the kind of drivel that will not be allowed here.

Isn't that something of a contradicto in terminis?

Yes, it is. However, sometimes it is instructive to demonstrate that which is not acceptable. I was told of an American TV show that was popular among youngsters (before the time that I came to the US) - Buffalo Bob's "Howdy Doody, don't!" - in which the host demonstrated certain forms of behavior and conduct that were inappropriate, thereby teaching the children how not to behave. Maybe we could even make an analogy to the "שס״ה mitzvot lo-ta'aseh" - the 365 precepts that tell us what not to do.

UriYosef

Our raison d'être:

WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a)

The fruits of our effort:

The battle against spiritual terrorism is being won, one soul at a time!!!

DW Duke

13 principles mandatory for noahides.

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Posts: 35

(04/10/08 12:43:06)

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

Thank you for that Sophie, but the whole reason why I saw fit to kick this No'ahite forum off with the Rambam's שְׁלֹשָׁה עָשָׂר עִקָּרִים is that they are also mandatory for a בֶּן-נֹחַ to accept too.

Hi Professor: Do you have a citation for this? I recall that some of the 13 Principles are expressly mandatory per the Rambam, such as knowledge that the Torah came from HaSHem and is unaltered. But I don't recall belief in Moshiach and some of the others as mandatory for a Noahide. Thanks.

Last Edited By: DW Duke 04/10/08 14:27:49. Edited 1 times.

ProfBenTziyyon

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Posts: 294

(04/10/08 17:20:36)

DW Duke wrote:
Hi Professor: Do you have a citation for this? I recall that some of the 13 Principles are expressly mandatory per the Rambam, such as knowledge that the Torah came from HaSHem and is unaltered. But I don't recall belief in Moshiach and some of the others as mandatory for a Noahide.

Not off the top of my head but as they say in Noo Yawk Siddy, "Caint hoyt!"

http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל

DW Duke

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Posts: 36

(04/10/08 19:04:31)

ProfBenTziyyon wrote:

DW Duke wrote:

Not off the top of my head but as they say in Noo Yawk Siddy, "Caint hoyt!"

As I am thinking about this, an argument could be made that since they must accept the Torah as true they would also have to accept the prophecies of Balaam which identifies a moshiach (actually two of them at different times) so they would have to accept the idea of a Moshiach.

pensteel

Mandatory Moshiach

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Posts: 24

(04/27/08 22:02:07)

Moderator

As far as I know belief in the Moshiach isn't a requirement of the Noachide Laws. However, I don't think it's one of the 613 either (if it is could you tell me which I have both the Sefer HaMitzvot and Sefer HaHinuch) but it is a foundational belief of Judaism. What I mean to say is that I don't think belief in the Moshiach is a matter of halachah. However, it is essential to a proper Torah world-view. Since Noachides must accept the oral tradition and part of that tradition tells us of the Moshiach (of course this is also in the Tanach) then it would be silly for a Noachide not to take the Moshiach as a foundational belief just as the Rambam puts it.

AP

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