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Posts: 176
Mon, 16-Jun-08 14:00:53
Posts: 20703
Mon, 16-Jun-08 14:04:45
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Mon, 16-Jun-08 15:30:19
Sophiee wrote
Based on the anti-Jewish fervor it seems unlikely.
1. I messed up on my Jews as a race argument, but do you mean ethnic Jews? 2. How does one endanger their immortal soul if Judaism has no concept of Hell?
3. If a person has to convert to Judaism to be a Jew then how are they still a Jew after disavowing Judaism?
4. If I converted to Judaism and my mother is not Jewish then I would only be a Noachide and not a Jew correct?
Mon, 16-Jun-08 17:00:05
Chris wrote: 1. I messed up on my Jews as a race argument, but do you mean ethnic Jews?
Jews are NOT any one ethnicity. Judaism is passed maternally (from mother to son or daughter) or via halachic (legal) conversion. There is no such thing as an "ethnic" Jew any more than Judaism is a race.
Chris wrote: 2. How does one endanger their immortal soul if Judaism has no concept of Hell?
'This balancing of iniquity and merit is not according to the number of sins or merits but according to their greatness. There is such merit that balances many sins, etc., and this balance can only be balanced with Divine Judgment; He who knows the true valuation of merits vis-à-vis debits.' 'This balancing of iniquity and merit is not according to the number of sins or merits but according to their greatness. There is such merit that balances many sins, etc., and this balance can only be balanced with Divine Judgment; He who knows the true valuation of merits vis-à-vis debits.'
"Moreover, when the A-lmighty does punish for sins - after He has been abundantly patient[22]- the punishment is not G-d forbid a revenge, rather it is for the good of the person, in order to cleanse and purify him from the impurity of the sin.[23] In the words of the Alter Rebbe:[24]'Like a merciful father who is wise and righteous who strikes his son ... like a great and awesome king who himself washes the excrement off his only son out of his great love for him.' by Rabbi Nissan Dovid Dubov, Published and copyright © by Sichos In English. (Back to text) See Talmud Yerushalmi, Taanis 2:1. (Back to text) See Kuzari, Maamar Sheni, ch.44; Ikkarim, Maamar Revi'i, ch. 38; Likkutei Torah, Korach, p. 53d, Mattos 86b; Likkutei Sichos, Vol. 22, p. 71. (Back to text) Tanya, Iggeres HaKodesh, Epsitle 22.
Chris wrote: 3. If a person has to convert to Judaism to be a Jew then how are they still a Jew after disavowing Judaism? 4. If I converted to Judaism and my mother is not Jewish then I would only be a Noachide and not a Jew correct?
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Mon, 16-Jun-08 17:17:40
Mon, 16-Jun-08 17:22:12
Posts: 361
Tue, 17-Jun-08 11:01:05
Jews are not a RACE, we are a nation made up of various races. The Jewish people are a nation. The first Jews were converts, and there have been many more along the way. So long as they converted prior to having a child their children had Jewish mothers and were born Jews. If you were to go to Israel you would see Jews of all kinds, and perhaps you'd even have a hard time telling the difference between some of the Jews and Arabs.
Tue, 17-Jun-08 15:51:04
A lot of people don't know that there is a difference.
I hesitate to say that you've learned anything about Jews from this site, though not for a lack of answers to your questions (sometimes the same ones on multiple occasions).
Tue, 17-Jun-08 19:02:03
Chris, Very good. Now try to show that you are aware of these things when you are asking questions and/or making statements which imply the contrary to this list you have rattled off (such as calling Jews a race or an ethnicity or talking about a mother passing Jewish genes when a convert is fully Jewish and will pass Jewish status to their children just like a Jew with a continuous lineage back to Jacob, etc. will). Netanel
Posts: 431
Tue, 17-Jun-08 22:05:39
Posts: 100
Tue, 17-Jun-08 23:38:11
Sophiee1 wrote: Matthew 23 is one of the most anti-Jewish sections of the Greek Text -- a brood of vipers, hypocrites. . . every possible evil is blamed on the Jews -- including every murder ever commited going all the way back to Cain and Abel! Matthew 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. This is repeated in Luke 11:51 -- the same chapter that begins with "the L-rd's prayer" and ends with: Luke 11:55 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of G-d; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.' Both Matthew and Luke blame "that generation" for the blood of all righteous people EVER LIVING up to that time! This is totally against the Torah which says that we are all responsible for our OWN sins and that we can repent of our sins and become good and righteous people: "The wicked should forsake his ways, and the evil person should forsake his plans, and return to HaShem, Who will have mercy on him, for He forgives abundantly." (Isaiah 55:7). Yet Matthew and Luke just said that the Jews are responsible for the blood of all righteous people going all the way back to Abel? Then why does Isaiah say that even a wicked person can change his ways and become good? Matthew and Luke hold out no hope! In these passages whoever put these words in Jsus' mouth accuses the Jews of being responsible for the murder of all the righteous of mankind from Abel to Zechariah. This kinda ignores the fact that there were NO Jews in the time of Abel, Noah, etc. In other words it is anti-semitic drivel to convince others that Jews are bad and damned, ergo turn to that Xian love! How can someone be responsible for something done by others long before his or her own birth? Answer s/he can't! It also speaks of an evil and vindictive god who punishes generation after generation -- after all it was Cain who killed Abel -- generations before the Jews existed as a people! If Matthew and Luke (quoting Jsus) were correct then Abraham, Isaac and Jacob themselves (not to mention Moses and Noah) were guilty of murdering these people! Isn't it amazing that the Xians don't see this hatred and anti-Jewish rhetoric for what it is?
Matthew 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Luke 11:55 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of G-d; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'
"The wicked should forsake his ways, and the evil person should forsake his plans, and return to HaShem, Who will have mercy on him, for He forgives abundantly." (Isaiah 55:7).
It is clearly because the writers, whoever they were , were too busy hating and falsely accusing the Jews, in Matthew and Luke, that it relays or exposes their timing blunder of when Judaism actually started !
They (GT writers, or Roman Govt.) were blinded of obvious facts by their hate.
This is yet another circumstance (In Matt, and Luke) to where Christianity clearly cannot exist, evidently, without falsely accusing, and hating another religion, or people ! The GT IS evidentally Antisemetic!
Posts: 7963
Wed, 18-Jun-08 04:53:17
Sophiee1 wrote in post #7 (addressed to N'tanel): King David is a perfect example. His G-g-g-g-grandmother was Ruth, a convert.
It is recorded in Divrei ha-Yamim Alef 2:12-15 and also in Rut 4:21-22 that
David's father was יִשַׁי Yishai (also spelt אִישַׁי Ishai); his grandfather was עוֹבֵד Oved; his great-grandfather was בֹּעַז Bo'az (called אִבְצָן Ivtzan in Shoftim 12:8-10)
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Posts: 3049
Wed, 18-Jun-08 05:31:58
Wed, 18-Jun-08 07:27:36
ProfBenTziyyon wrote: Sophiee1 wrote in post #7 (addressed to N'tanel): King David is a perfect example. His G-g-g-g-grandmother was Ruth, a convert. רוּת Rut, who was married to Bo'az-Ivtzan, was his great-grandmother and not his great-great-great-great-grandmother.
Todah. I never remember quite how far back it goes and didn't have the time to look it up. I'll try and remember that!
Wed, 18-Jun-08 08:18:02
Lady Felix wrote: I believe you are miss understanding Mathew 23. I just read it myself and Jsus was rebuking the unrighteous pharisees not the righteous pharisees. Jesus was addressing the Pharisees not the Jewish people. He was rebuking the Pharisees for being hypocrites not practicing what they preached. . . . For a man that you believe never existed you really do hate him. . .How can you hate Jsus if you do not believe in Him? That would be like me hating Santa Claus when I do not believe in him.
LF, Matthew 23 and Luke 11 are very clear. They are full of hatred. They both blame Jews for EVERY murder from Abel forward! You don't see the hatred in this? Really???
Matthew 23:31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Whoever wrote this (putting the words in Jsus' mouth) were setting up a terrible prejudice against all Jews. Just think, LF, a newborn Jewish baby is guilty of the blood of Abel! How crazy is that? How full of hatred??
FYI the Pharisees ARE the Jews -- the Jews of today. We are Torah observing Jews. It is the GT that has Jsus say that he comes not to bring mercy, but death. The Pharisees taught JUST THE OPPOSITE. As others have pointed out in this thread, your opinion of the Pharisees is distorted by the GT. Here are a few other quotes. First from the "loving" Jsus:
Quote: Matthew 23:33), You snakes, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? John 3:36), He who believes in the Son has everlasting life. But he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but shall suffer the everlasting wrath of G-d.
Quote: (Tosefta, Sanhedrin 13), The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come.
Lady Felix wrote: I believe you are miss understanding Mathew 23. I just read it myself and Jsus was rebuking the unrighteous pharisees not the righteous pharisees.
This is certainly what the Xians believe and what the GT says. But words are just words. In actuality it is Jsus (as portrayed in the GT) who is hypocritical, not the Pharisees he accuses. The Pharisees ARE the Jews, LF. The Torah observant Jews who chastise Jsus for not only his failure to keep Torah, but his actual encouragement of others away from G-d's word.
Quote: Be deliberate in Judgement (Mishnah, Avot 1:1): Judges must take care that even if they have judged similar cases two or three times before, they must take care in deliberating before issuing a ruling. ("Justice, Justice, shall you pursue" Deut. 16:20) The world stands on three things on the Torah, on the service [of G-d], and upon acts of loving-kindness. (Mishnah, Avot 1:2) How to be a servant of G-d Antigonus...used to say "Be not as servants who serve the master [ie G-d] for the sake of receiving [even a token] reward, but rather, be like servants who serve the master not for the sake of receiving reward; and [nonetheless] the fear [or awe] of Heaven should be upon you." (Mishnah, Avot 1:3) What does this mean? It does not mean that we will not be rewarded ever (Zaddok and and Boethus mistakenly thought this, and started two new sects, rejecting the Oral Law. Zaddok founded the Sadducees, and Boethus founded Boethusim). I means that we should do G-d's will because it is G-d's will, and not for the sake of reward. Treatment of the poor Yose ben Yochanan...say: "Let your house be open wide [ie for guests, hopitality, anyone in need]; treat the poor as members of your household..." (Mishnah, Avot 1:5) Judge everyone favorably This was said by Yehoshua ben Perachyah in Mishnah, Avot 1:6. It means that we should not jump to conclusions, but think the best of a person about whom we do not know all the facts. If something looks as if a person is doing something bad, we must assume that there is something we do not yet know, and find out the facts. Hillel says: "Be among the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and bringing them closer to the Torah" (Mishnah, Avot 1:12) Hillel may have still been alive when Jesus was born, since he lived in the time of Herod "the Great"
Quote: Of splinters and beams Rabbi Yochanan, quoting a saying from the judges (the same judges the book of Judges talks about), said (after the destruction of the Second Temple) "If [a judge] would say to [a defendant], 'Remover the splinter from between your teeth (ie refrain from a minor infraction),' [the defendent] would retort to [the judge], 'Remove the beam from before your eyes [ie refrain from a major transgression]'" (Talmud, Bava Batra 15b3, Art Scroll translation)
Wed, 18-Jun-08 08:23:09
Lady Felix wrote: For a man that you believe never existed you really do hate him. How can you hate someone that you don't believe in? Doesnt' the Bible tell us to forgive others and not to hate anyone? Doesnt' the Bible tell us to love our enemies and to pray for them when they persecuted us? . . . How can you hate Jsus if you do not believe in Him? That would be like me hating Santa Claus when I do not believe in him.
LF, kindly quote ONE post where I stated that I hate Jsus.
There aren't any.
Wed, 18-Jun-08 08:30:01
Lady Felix wrote: You say G-d created evil yet you complain about the evil that has been done to you. I m a little confused. Why are you complaining about evil that has been done to you if you believe that G-d created? If it is God's will for evil to come your way then why are you complaining about G-d's will?
If you do good, will there not be special privilege? And if you do not do good, sin is crouching at the door. It lusts after you, but you can dominate it.'
Wed, 18-Jun-08 09:53:37
In these passages whoever put these words in Jsus' mouth accuses the Jews of being responsible for the murder of all the righteous of mankind from Abel to Zechariah. This kinda ignores the fact that there were NO Jews in the time of Abel, Noah, etc. In other words it is anti-semitic drivel to convince others that Jews are bad and damned, ergo turn to that Xian love! How can someone be responsible for something done by others long before his or her own birth?
This is totally against the Torah which says that we are all responsible for our OWN sins and that we can repent of our sins and become good and righteous people: "The wicked should forsake his ways, and the evil person should forsake his plans, and return to HaShem, Who will have mercy on him, for He forgives abundantly." (Isaiah 55:7).
Wed, 18-Jun-08 09:59:00
Posts: 128
Wed, 18-Jun-08 11:56:00
Lady Felix, I have asked other Chrstians this before when they referenced Matt: 23, but never got a real answer, maybe YOU can give me a real answer? Usually, they just repeated over and over that the Pharisees were "hypocrites", but they couldn't give actual examples of their so-called hypocricy. They repeated the claim of "rejecting G-D's laws (commandments) in order to preserve their (man's) traditions. I asked them to explain what that meant, they couldn't. I asked specifically WHICH commandments the Pharisees rejected and which traditions they kept. They couldn't answer. Maybe you can give a logical, understandable answer?
You said Jsus wasn't rebuking the righteous Pharisees, just the unrighteous Pharisees. What is the difference and how can you know 1900 years AFTER this was written, just who was who? If they were ALL Pharisees, which means Torah-observant Jews, then how could they NOT be righteous is they were following Torah?
You said the Pharisees weren't practicing what they preached...what evidence do you have to back up that accusation? Maybe if you gave an example of what they "preached" and provided some kind of proof that they didn't follow it? Please, I am asking for REAL evidence, REAL proof---not just parroting what the writer of the gospel according to Matthew alleged. And just what is this "preached" stuff anyway? They ADVISED on halacha---the Levites were what you call "teachers of the Law".
Also, when you can, could you please take the time to show exactly which prophet(s) was/were murdered, when it happened and exactly WHO did it? OF course evidence showing actual proof is required here---not just some unknown man's diary entry claiming some other guy said so. Thanks in advance for your help.
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