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Posts: 361
Wed, 18-Jun-08 16:27:30
Posts: 1507
Wed, 18-Jun-08 17:08:19
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Wed, 18-Jun-08 17:22:24
John, hadassah asked for EXAMPLES of the "hypocrisy" that those wicked old "Pharisees" are accused of, ACTUAL EVIDENCE of them not following what they "preached", and DETAILS of WHICH prophet or prophets were "murdered", WHEN, and BY WHOM? You claim to be a former christian, but even you pointedly ignored these specific enquiries.
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Wed, 18-Jun-08 21:03:37
Thu, 19-Jun-08 06:39:48
So IOW you can't answer the questions - but thereagain, they weren't even addressed to you.
Posts: 738
Thu, 19-Jun-08 07:08:10
>>Usually, they just repeated over and over that the Pharisees were "hypocrites", but they couldn't give actual examples of their so-called hypocricy. They repeated the claim of "rejecting G-D's laws (commandments) in order to preserve their (man's) traditions. I asked them to explain what that meant, they couldn't. I asked specifically WHICH commandments the Pharisees rejected and which traditions they kept. They couldn't answer. Maybe you can give a logical, understandable answer?<<
Doesn't Matthew 15:1-9 answer this? A specific example is provided. Then there is the account of stoning the woman for adultery. That is presented in a way that apparently she was used (set up) in order to trap Jesus. That doesn't sound very godly. My guess is people back then aren't a lot different than they are now.
Since Jesus said do as they say, not as they do, I've always understood this to mean that there were a number who were demanding obedience to the Law for everyone while themselves not being so obedient. Much like you might see a televangelist on TV preaching against homosexuality only to later come out in the news he was caught taking drugs and having sex with a homosexual.
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Thu, 19-Jun-08 07:33:44
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Thu, 19-Jun-08 08:13:43
Posts: 2024
Thu, 19-Jun-08 08:25:08
Thu, 19-Jun-08 10:57:05
tyolilums wrote: Doesn't Matthew 15:1-9 answer this? A specific example is provided.
Whoever wrote the GT was either (a) not Jewish or (b) an uneducated Jew (meaning they were born a Jew, but knew nothing about the religion. Just read Matthew 15 where the Pharisees supposedly abrade J-sus and company for not washing their hands.
Matthew 15:1-3 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to J-sus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" J-sus replied, "And why do you break the command of G-d for the sake of your tradition?
There is just one problem here - the Pharisees never would have said this to J-sus. Why? Because at the time the story supposedly took place there was NO SUCH tradition to wash the hands.
During the Temple periods (the first and second Temples) the priests were required to wash before they ate. The laws are found in (Exodus 30:18-21, Deuteronomy 21:6 and Leviticus 15:11). An entire tractate of the Mishnah (Yadayim) is devoted to impurity of the hands.
J-sus and his followers supposedly lived in the Second Temple period - they weren't priests so they were not required to wash. It wasn't until the Second Temple was destroyed (70 CE, or 40 years after J-sus death) that the Rabbis decreed that without a Temple the laws for washing should extend to all Jews. (Rambam Yad HaChazake Trumos 11 & 12).
See what I mean? Whoever wrote Matthew didn't know Jewish law. They must have written this after the second Temple had been destroyed and all Jews were required to wash per rabbinic decree. In other words: the story was made up after the fact.
Let's re-read Matthew:
And let's add in Mark for good measure:
Mark 7:3 "For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders."
Jsus doesn't deny that he or his followers broke the law (now we know there was no such decree at the time, but the GT authors thought there was so what is the point of the story? To make the Jews look bad over something that seems "small."
But notice something else that the GT has J-sus doing over and over again: It has J-sus shifting the focus away from what he did wrong by changing the subject (something modern missionaries do to this very day).
What does J-sus's comment "you break the commandment of G-d" have to do with the fact that J-sus broke one? And note that Matthew 15 doesn't say WHICH commandment (if any) the Pharisees broke.
The J-sus of the GT constantly breaks Torah laws, doesn't deny it - and then tries to change the subject! More on the stoning example you gave in my next post. Still waiting for an example of Pharisee hypocrisy. This one is just a good example of making up a story to have the Jews look like villains. Total fiction.
Thu, 19-Jun-08 11:13:55
tyolilums wrote: (trying to find examples of Pharisee hypocrisy in the GT) Then there is the account of stoning the woman for adultery. That is presented in a way that apparently she was used (set up) in order to trap Jsus. That doesn't sound very godly.
It doesn't sound plausible, let alone godly.
The text in question appears in John 8. (References help, Ty).
John 8:1-11 where this tale appears doesn't show up in early manuscripts of the Greek Text. "The New Testament, Part 2" (Bart D. Ehrman). The story was considered a forgery until the Council of Trent (in the 19th century!) codified it. The RSV excluded the text and just put it in the footnotes. The NRSV put it back into the body of the text. . .
Thu, 19-Jun-08 12:16:37
Thu, 19-Jun-08 14:07:47
johntjr wrote: Professor Mordochia wrote:
John T., "Mordochai" is a transliteration of the Hebrew name מָרְדֳּכַי, the first cousin of the [possibly fictitious] eponymous Queen Hadassah-Estér of the m'gillah of Purim, and also one of the Y'hudæan Elders who, together with Crown Prince Z'rubavel and Chief Kohen-Designate Y'hoshua [also known as "Yéshua"] ben Y'hotzadak, grandson of S'rayah (the last Chief Kohen to serve in the First Temple), led the returning exiles who took advantage of Koresh the Persian's amnesty in 539BCE (see Ezra 2:2 and also N'hemyah 7:7). The last syllable rhymes with "EYE" and this vowel sound is represented in transliteration by the digraph ai. It is a source of constant irritation to me when people who are too lazy to pay proper attention to how others spell their names, continually insist on separating the A and I and writing them the wrong way around.
Thu, 19-Jun-08 14:17:11
Thu, 19-Jun-08 14:31:54
Thu, 19-Jun-08 15:07:59
johntjr wrote: It was a typo. Sorry about that Professor Mordochai.
Was it a typo in post #26 AND in post #34? One can make a mistake once, but what are the chances of making exactly the same mistake TWICE?
Thu, 19-Jun-08 15:40:38
Posts: 4849
Thu, 19-Jun-08 16:25:55
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johntjr wrote: I'm done with this forum!
JohnT - Please stay and participate. It is your choice whether or not to interact with other paticipants here. I am sure that people have gained some good insight from your posts, and you yourself have indicated to us here how much you have learnt from these boards. UriYosef
Thu, 19-Jun-08 16:51:37
Thu, 19-Jun-08 18:06:17
johntjr wrote: Why are you making such an issue out of it? I'm done with this forum!
That little temper tantrum confirmed what previously I had only believed.
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