For goodness' sake, tyolilums, what is so hard to understand? The Tetragrammaton DOES NOT HAVE ANY VOWELS, and as such it is
unpronounceable. It often appears with vowels in printed Bibles, though (although never in writen scrolls, which in any case contain no vowel
markings), and appears as either יְדֹוָה or as יֱדֹוִה (in which I have replced the first of the two
hé's by a dallet). These two sets of vowel-points are actually the vowels of the two words אֲדֹנָי adonai ("my Lord")
and אֱלֹהִים elohim ("God") respectively, and indicate which of the two words a particular instance of the Tetragrammaton represents - that
is to say, how it is to be vocalised. In practice, the Tetragrammaton is vocalised as adonai far more frequently than as elohim.
However, even the word אֲדֹנָי adonai is treated with great respect, because the Tetragrammaton is usually vocalised (i.e. read out aloud) as
adonai, so we do not utter even this word unnecessarily... instead, we SAY the word הַשֵּׁם ha-shém (which
technically should be pronounced as "HA-SHAME" rather than as "ha-shemm"), meaning "The Name", in its place and, in
writing, we use the letter hé followed by an apostrophe (the apostrophe indicating that the hé is an abbreviation - in this case an
abbreviation of the word הַשֵּׁם).
Contrary to what another poster told you previously (and which you in any case misunderstood), the word הַשֵּׁם is never found in the T'nach in
this context (although it occurs many times in the sense of "the name").
NOW do you understand???
Gen (Bereishis) 15:2
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 ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 925 (06/18/08 05:52:27) |
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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 Netanel |
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Posts: 1175 (06/18/08 07:05:56) |
Mordochai,
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 927 (06/18/08 08:10:00) |
Netanel wrote: Referring to, Yes; but "in place of", No. The correct translation of that passage is as follows The son of a certain Yisraelite woman (who was the son of an Egyptian man) went out among the Yisraelites; and this son of a Yisraelite woman got into a fight in the camp with a Yisraelite man. Then the son of the Yisraelite woman uttered "The Name", and cursed It - so they brought him to Mosheh... and he was confined in detention, until the matter could be clarified for them from Adonai's Mouth. (Vayikra 24:10-12)The sentence passed on the "son of the Yisraelite woman" was severe (Vayikra 24:13-16): Adonai spoke to Mosheh and said, "Take the one who cursed [Me] outside the camp and have everyone who heard him press their hands onto his head; then the entire community is to execute him. And tell the Yisraelites this: 'Any man who curses his God commits an unforgivable sin; and anyone who utters the Four-Lettered Name must be put to death - the entire community is to execute him - the same applies to a foreigner as to a citizen - he must die for his utterrance of The Name'." (Vayikra 24:13-16)Note that the word שֵׁם (shém) is used twice in Vayikra 24:16 (וְנֹקֵב שֵׁם יקוק "he uttered The Name yod, hé, vav, hé" and בְּנָקְבוֹ שֵׁם "for his utterance of The Name"). The "son of the Yisraelite woman" - whose name is not recorded, although his mother's name (Sh'lomit daughter of Divri, from the tribe Dan) is - actually committed two separate offences: (1) he spoke the Four-Lettered "Name", andHe was executed for the first of these two crimes; the sin of "cursing God" (verse 15) is so serious that no "atonement" is possible for it: a person committing such a serious sin must "bear his guilt", that is to say it remains with him for the remainder of his life and is dealt with by God Himself after his death. Only by sincere and contrite repentance and devoting himself to selfless, charitable acts can he have any hope of "redeeming" himself. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Netanel |
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Posts: 1176 (06/18/08 08:21:29) |
Mordochai,
Was HaShem or wasn't HaShem used rather than using the Tetragrammation in this specific instance? I am not saying that HaShem was used as we use it today in place of saying the Tetragrammation, as can obviously be seen throughout the Torah, the Nach, the T'hillim, and so on. What I am saying is that for one reason or another (perhaps because the nature of the sin, the man cursing G-d's Four-Letter Name?) Moshe, in this passage, used HaShem rather than the name itself. Netanel |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 928 (06/18/08 09:35:27) |
Netanel wrote: N'tanel,
How would you prefer verse 11 to be worded? וַיִּקֹּב means "[and] he uttered" and וַיִּקֹּב בֶּן הָאִשָּׁה הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִית אֶת יְיָ ("and the son of the Yisraelite woman uttered God") would be meaningless! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Netanel |
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Posts: 1177 (06/18/08 10:06:58) |
Mordochai,
What makes you think I would prefer for the verse to be worded differently than it is? I am speaking of the verse as it is. "G-d" is not the same as the Divine Name. Hashem seems pretty clearly to be referring to the Divine Name, but rather than write the Divine Name itself in the recording of this happening, Moshe writes "Hashem". G-d is not "The Name". The Four-Lettered Tetragrammation is The Name. What am I missing? Netanel |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 929 (06/18/08 12:30:15) |
You are trying to look at a mountain through a microscope and are missing the "bigger picture" for all the detail revealed by the microscope. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Netanel |
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Posts: 1178 (06/18/08 13:24:18) |
OK, I am asking you to show me the rest of the mountain which you say I am missing. I am not disputing or denying the overall context of the verses . I say
Hashem in this instance is referring to - and is being written in a place where would otherwise be written - the Divine Four-Letter Name. I am admitting to
not seeing where you get the implication that I want to change what the verse(s) actually say based on this. Please explain.
Thanks, Netanel |
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tyolilums |
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Posts: 230 (06/18/08 15:55:57) |
>>For goodness' sake, tyolilums, what is so hard to understand? <<< Umm...this is all new to me in Hebrew? I was feeling pretty good about my understanding until you posted again. Ok, here is what I know. 1. In Gen 15:2 you have the four letter tetragrammation name of God which is usually written without vowels. But it is written here with vowels. 2. In Gen 15:2 I also see the word before it which is Adonai. Ok. Now you say, " The Tetragrammaton DOES NOT HAVE ANY VOWELS, and as such it is unpronounceable. " I understand this. " It often appears with vowels in printed Bibles, though (although never in writen scrolls, which in any case contain no vowel markings)," I understand this because it's in Gen 15:2. " and appears as either יְדֹוָה or as יֱדֹוִה (in which I have replced the first of the two hé's by a dallet). " I understand. " These two sets of vowel-points are actually the vowels of the two words אֲדֹנָי adonai ("my Lord") and אֱלֹהִים elohim ("God") respectively, and indicate which of the two words a particular instance of the Tetragrammaton represents - that is to say, how it is to be vocalised. In practice, the Tetragrammaton is vocalised as adonai far more frequently than as elohim." I understand, sort of. Obviously these instances aren't the 'real name' of God, right? So I don't understand why you wouldn't just sound out the four letters with whatever vowels are there. It doesn't sound like Elohim. I see more as Yeh ho ee h but I don't know how to pronounce a vav with with two vowel markings on it. "However, even the word אֲדֹנָי adonai is treated with great respect, because the Tetragrammaton is usually vocalised (i.e. read out aloud) as adonai, so we do not utter even this word unnecessarily." I understand ".. instead, we SAY the word הַשֵּׁם ha-shém (which technically should be pronounced as "HA-SHAME" rather than as "ha-shemm"), meaning "The Name", in its place and, in writing, we use the letter hé followed by an apostrophe (the apostrophe indicating that the hé is an abbreviation - in this case an abbreviation of the word הַשֵּׁם). " I understand. "Contrary to what another poster told you previously (and which you in any case misunderstood)," I'm not sure I did misundertand, did I? "the word הַשֵּׁם is never found in the T'nach in this context (although it occurs many times in the sense of "the name"). " I think I understand this as the word isn't in scripture but the four letter name is and Adonai or HaShem is used. "NOW do you understand???" I understand a little more each day
To You , O LORD, I lift up my soul; in You I trust. Psalm 25:1
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 934 (06/18/08 16:01:00) |
You say that the word ha-shém "is being written in a place where would otherwise be written - the Divine Four-Letter Name"; so I ask you again: how do you claim verse 11 could be worded using the Four Lettered Name? http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 935 (06/18/08 16:29:20) |
tyolilums wrote: Huh??? What DO you mean by that??? tyolilums wrote: Of course the Four Letters "don't sound like elohim" but they are READ ALOUD as elohim in those cases where the vowels hataf-segol ( ֱ ), holam haser ( ֹ ), hirik ( ִ ) have been added to the Four Letters. But what do you mean by "a vav with with two vowel markings on it"? No Hebrew consonant can ever be pointed with more than one vowel marking, and in both the pointed forms of the Tetragrammaton, the vav is only marked with one - kamatz in the adonai form and hirik in the elohim form. http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Netanel |
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Posts: 1179 (06/18/08 16:44:35) |
Mordochai,
OK, I see now what you are saying, thank you. I erred in implying that Hashem was literally substituted straight across for the Tetragrammation. My original point was that this instance in the Torah itself is an example of the use of Hashem's rather than writing/pronouncing the Tetragrammation, but I went too far in implying that this instance literally substituted Hashem for the Divine Four Letter Name. Though I still think it is interesting that in this instance the particular phrase was chosen including Hashem rather than a phrase using the Divine Four Letter Name. There is a purpose for everything. Netanel |
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tyolilums |
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Posts: 231 (06/18/08 17:33:07) |
>>"Huh??? What DO you mean by that???" Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that we don't know the real four letter Name, with the correct vowels. So what is in Gen 15:2 isn't considered the real name, correct? >>"Of course the Four Letters "don't sound like elohim" but they are READ ALOUD as elohim in those cases where the vowels hataf-segol ( ֱ ), holam haser ( ֹ ), hirik ( ִ ) have been added to the Four Letters. But what do you mean by "a vav with with two vowel markings on it"? No Hebrew consonant can ever be pointed with more than one vowel marking, and in both the pointed forms of the Tetragrammaton, the vav is only marked with one - kamatz in the adonai form and hirik in the elohim form." I understand you substitute Elohim for the word there. In the Stone Edition bible I'm looking in I see two vowels on the vav. One below, a dot (shireq) and one above the vav, a dot (holam haser). So now my question is, can this word be pronounced just as it is written? And who decided that this four letter name with the vowel markings of Elohim should be read as Elohim and not sound it out as written?
To You , O LORD, I lift up my soul; in You I trust. Psalm 25:1
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 938 (06/18/08 19:41:18) |
N'tanel,
By the way, one million Brownie points to the first person who can guess the reason for the strange way the kohen's ox sacrifice was positioned while he made his two confessions over it! http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל
Last Edited By: ProfBenTziyyon
07/01/08 09:22:21.
Edited 1 times.
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Netanel |
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Posts: 1180 (06/18/08 19:51:58) |
Ty,
We know that the different sets of vowels which you will find with the Tetragrammation are not the true vowels. No, it can't be pronounced with the vowels, because it forms a nonsense word. Trying to read the vowels with the Tetragrammation is how the Germans came up with the false reading of Jehovah. This form of the Tetragramation has the vowels markings for Adonai. This is to remind us as we are reading it not to pronounce the Name, but to say Adonai instead. In the case we have been discussing the Tetragrammation has the vowel markings of Elohim. You will find an instance of the first in 15:1 and the instance of the second in 15:2. FYI, the holam haser follows the hey, while the hiriq follows the vav. If you have your ArtScroll in front of you, look at the difference between the vav in this instance of the Tetragrammation and of the vav in the word avon (ayin-vav-nun sofit - translated in the Humash as iniquity) later in the chapter in 15:16. You will see the difference between the holam haser before a vav and a holam haser after a vav. Netanel |
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 939 (06/18/08 20:05:33) |
tyolilums wrote: You still aren't getting it. THE FOUR LETTERS ARE NEVER "SOUNDED OUT" AS WRITTEN. WHY IS
THIS SIMPLE IDEA SO HARD FOR YOU TO GET INTO YOUR HEAD??? THE GROUP OF LETTERS YOD, HÉ, VAV, HÉ IS
ALWAYS PRONOUNCED AS EITHER ADONAI OR AS ELOHIM, DEPENDING ON WHICH SET OF VOWELS IT IS PRINTED WITH. This is such a
simple concept, yet you stubbornly refuse to get it. I wonder why this might be?
http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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tyolilums |
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Posts: 232 (06/18/08 20:54:29) |
OK. I now understand. Too bad there is no test. I think I'd get a 100
To You , O LORD, I lift up my soul; in You I trust. Psalm 25:1
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ProfBenTziyyon |
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Posts: 942 (06/19/08 06:54:50) |
סוֹף סוֹף׃ http://mordochai.tripod.com - פרופ' מָרְדֳּכַי בֶּן-צִיּוֹן, יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל |
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Sophiee1 |
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Posts: 10948 (06/19/08 07:36:43) Moderator |
Professor, it is hard for Ty to understand because it is all very new to her (IMHO).
And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice. Genesis, 21:12
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tyolilums |
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Posts: 235 (06/19/08 08:38:35) |
FINALLY!
Hey..I know THAT word/s
To You , O LORD, I lift up my soul; in You I trust. Psalm 25:1
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